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Original poster

Secondary School Third Choice Allocated - can we appeal?

140 replies

kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:13

Hello, I hope someone can help.

We recently learned our daughter has been allocated her third choice school. This school is close to us but has a bad name, which is why we put it as third choice rather than first or second.

All her current school friends are going to her first choice, and our child is distraught. We had reasons for choosing the first choice as we did and we feel there is a grounds to appeal on those bases, however I am not sure that the distance rule has been applied correctly in any case.

Her friends do all live closer to <FIRST CHOICE> than us, but it seems that crucially, they don't live too close to <THIRD CHOICE>. We emailed the admissions team at the council to say we weren't happy with the offer and below is an extract from the reply, with the schools redacted. It appears that we have been penalised for living too close to a bad school, which is bizarre, Is this right?

Thanks in advance.

Extract from the reply:
<FIRST CHOICE SCHOOL> was oversubscribed and we had to apply the oversubscription criteria in order to allocate places. The last person offered a place at this school lived 2.56 miles in the nearest school criterion and you live 1.55 miles from the school in the distance criterion. <THIRD CHOICE SCHOOL> is your closest school, therefore your application was refused on distance. <SECOND CHOICE SCHOOL> was also over subscribed and the last person offered lived 1.82 miles in the distance criterion. You live 3.41 miles from this school and this application was also refused on distance.

OP posts:
NeverDropYourMooncup · 02/03/2024 22:54

kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:36

That has changed from what it was when we applied - the document you have found is undated. I found that tonight too.... but if i understnad that correctly then it is saying, priority is being disregarded and we're being penalised for naming a school close ot us as third choice. Is that how everyone else reads it?

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You're probably looking at the 2025-26 Determined Admissions Arrangements now, as they have to be up on the website no later than 15 March of the previous academic year - they don't apply to admissions this September.

EduCated · 02/03/2024 22:54

The reply you had from the council fits with the criteria that @Lougle posted.

If the criteria you have shared are the ones on the school website and genuinely make no reference to closest school, then that needs querying.

Ultimately criteria around nearest school are trying to avoid admissions black spots, where you get areas that aren’t close enough to any school to qualify, and end up with no school at all, whilst others have the choice of multiple schools. It also encourages children attending their local schools, which many people (me included) consider a positive.

Lougle · 02/03/2024 22:53

@kdandml could you PM me the name of the actual school? Nearly all the schools in your LA use the 'nearest school to applicant' criteria but there is one that appears not to. If you PM me the name of the school, I'll be able to see what's happened.

Original poster
kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:53

EduCated · 02/03/2024 22:47

I don’t think I have misunderstood. I understand that you live closer to school 1 than they do, but school 3 is your closest school. So if School 1 has a ‘closest school’ category, you won’t have qualified for that. They may live further from School 1 than you, but if other schools are further still from them and 1 is their closest school, if the criteria @Lougle shared are correct, then they will have been a higher priority.

Let’s say you live 1 mile from School 3, and 1.5 miles from School 1. They live 5 miles from School 1, but 5.5 miles from School 3 (with no other schools nearer to them). Therefore, your nearest school is 1, theirs is 3, even though you live closer.

I get what youre saying. This is straight off the policies information on the school website:
The Governing Body, as the Admission Authority, have adopted the following oversubscription criteria:
When there are more requests for places than those available, the following criteria will be used to
allocate places strictly in order of priority:
5.Applicants nearest to <SCHOOL>
Children who have applied for a place at <SCHOOL> as measured by the distance from their home address, to the main entrance, measured by the shortest walking route

OP posts:
Original poster
kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:51

AmeliaSmallhope · 02/03/2024 22:48

Do those kids still have school 1 as their closest school though? Even if they live further away than you do?

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yes, definitely

OP posts:
Original poster
kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:50

AmeliaSmallhope · 02/03/2024 22:41

What are the oversubscription criteria?

In my LA, one of the oversubscription criteria is children who’ve applied to their nearest school. Children who’ve applied to a school that’s not their nearest are a lower priority.

So for instance we live about 4.5 miles away from our nearest secondary school - School A. But School B is about 2 miles away from School A. So my DC will get priority at School A over some children who live just 1 mile away from School A because those children have School B as their closest school.

So therefore it is beneficial to seek to live in a village where the nearest school is a good school then? Wow. And to think people move to areas to be CLOSE to schools. Gamechanger.

OP posts:
AmeliaSmallhope · 02/03/2024 22:48

kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:42

Hi, maybe im misunderstanding so forgive me but i think youre misunderstnading...we live closest to school 3, then school 1. Kids have been accepted to school 1 who live further away than we do from both of those schools. Hope that helps explain! :)

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Do those kids still have school 1 as their closest school though? Even if they live further away than you do?

EduCated · 02/03/2024 22:47

I don’t think I have misunderstood. I understand that you live closer to school 1 than they do, but school 3 is your closest school. So if School 1 has a ‘closest school’ category, you won’t have qualified for that. They may live further from School 1 than you, but if other schools are further still from them and 1 is their closest school, if the criteria @Lougle shared are correct, then they will have been a higher priority.

Let’s say you live 1 mile from School 3, and 1.5 miles from School 1. They live 5 miles from School 1, but 5.5 miles from School 3 (with no other schools nearer to them). Therefore, your nearest school is 1, theirs is 3, even though you live closer.

Original poster
kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:45

clary · 02/03/2024 22:39

Putting the third choice school down won't have ruled out the first one tho @falalalalalalalallama - the OP didn't get the place at the first one because more people listed it for whom it was their closest school.

It's not the OP's closest school - so her application would be considered after those for whom it is (who listed it) - and places were filled from that list (or from that list and from others who live closer than the OP).

There is a school near me which operates a catchment, and some people within the catchment live further away than some outside it but they get places ahead of the people outside catchment. It's fair in this case as the catchment children live a long way from their next nearest school, whereas the nearer people have other schools in the city or another town.

Edited

I think this is whats happened. Please see below though - this is the admissions policy for 23/24, uploaded to the school wesbite in august 2023:

The Governing Body, as the Admission Authority, have adopted the following oversubscription criteria:

When there are more requests for places than those available, the following criteria will be used to
allocate places strictly in order of priority:

  1. Looked after children and all previously looked after children....
  2. Medical Reasons...
  3. Sibling Links...
  4. Children of Permanent Staff...
  5. Applicants nearest to <SCHOOL>
Children who have applied for a place at <SCHOOL> as measured by the distance from their home address, to the main entrance, measured by the shortest walking route
  1. Tie-breaker....
OP posts:
Original poster
kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:42

EduCated · 02/03/2024 22:39

No, it’s not. You’re not being penalised, it would have been the same regardless of whether you had listed School 3 as a preference or not.

If School 3 was the popular school that you wanted, you’d have been a higher priority than those living closer to School 1. In that system, everyone has a school where they get a higher priority.

Show quote history

Hi, maybe im misunderstanding so forgive me but i think youre misunderstnading...we live closest to school 3, then school 1. Kids have been accepted to school 1 who live further away than we do from both of those schools. Hope that helps explain! :)

OP posts:
AmeliaSmallhope · 02/03/2024 22:41

What are the oversubscription criteria?

In my LA, one of the oversubscription criteria is children who’ve applied to their nearest school. Children who’ve applied to a school that’s not their nearest are a lower priority.

So for instance we live about 4.5 miles away from our nearest secondary school - School A. But School B is about 2 miles away from School A. So my DC will get priority at School A over some children who live just 1 mile away from School A because those children have School B as their closest school.

Lougle · 02/03/2024 22:41

kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:36

That has changed from what it was when we applied - the document you have found is undated. I found that tonight too.... but if i understnad that correctly then it is saying, priority is being disregarded and we're being penalised for naming a school close ot us as third choice. Is that how everyone else reads it?

Show quote history

No. Every school is considered as if it is your first choice.

Choice 1: You were closer to the school than some other applicants, but it wasn't your closest school and it was filled by students who either had it as their closest school, or who lived closer to you but had another school that was closer to them.

Second choice school: You lived further away from the school then the last child admitted.

Third choice school: It was your closest school and you were admitted above any children who applied but had a closer school. You were close enough to get a place.

clary · 02/03/2024 22:39

Putting the third choice school down won't have ruled out the first one tho @falalalalalalalallama - the OP didn't get the place at the first one because more people listed it for whom it was their closest school.

It's not the OP's closest school - so her application would be considered after those for whom it is (who listed it) - and places were filled from that list (or from that list and from others who live closer than the OP).

There is a school near me which operates a catchment, and some people within the catchment live further away than some outside it but they get places ahead of the people outside catchment. It's fair in this case as the catchment children live a long way from their next nearest school, whereas the nearer people have other schools in the city or another town.

EduCated · 02/03/2024 22:39

kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:36

That has changed from what it was when we applied - the document you have found is undated. I found that tonight too.... but if i understnad that correctly then it is saying, priority is being disregarded and we're being penalised for naming a school close ot us as third choice. Is that how everyone else reads it?

Show quote history

No, it’s not. You’re not being penalised, it would have been the same regardless of whether you had listed School 3 as a preference or not.

If School 3 was the popular school that you wanted, you’d have been a higher priority than those living closer to School 1. In that system, everyone has a school where they get a higher priority.

Original poster
kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:39

Lougle · 02/03/2024 22:37

The LA website is very clear that children who apply to their nearest school are prioritised over other children (bar LAC/EHCP/exceptional medical reasons).

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Yes but the nearest school was our third choice. If you see the website of the school we applied to, it doesnt say what the LA document says. It says simple distance. I really do appreciate all the help from everyone!!!

OP posts:
Lougle · 02/03/2024 22:37

falalalalalalalallama · 02/03/2024 22:35

If you don't take a copy now, they could update the site and you'd have no way of prooving it.

The LA website is very clear that children who apply to their nearest school are prioritised over other children (bar LAC/EHCP/exceptional medical reasons).

Tiswa · 02/03/2024 22:37

First off accept the third choice school place. Then see where you are on waitlist for both
then properly look at the criteria because if you are that close it’s odd

Original poster
kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:36

Lougle · 02/03/2024 22:33

(iv) Applicants to their nearest school - those children who have applied for a place at the nearest school to their home address measured by the shortest walking route

(v) All other applicants

From your LA admissions page @kdandml

That has changed from what it was when we applied - the document you have found is undated. I found that tonight too.... but if i understnad that correctly then it is saying, priority is being disregarded and we're being penalised for naming a school close ot us as third choice. Is that how everyone else reads it?

OP posts:
falalalalalalalallama · 02/03/2024 22:35

If you don't take a copy now, they could update the site and you'd have no way of prooving it.

falalalalalalalallama · 02/03/2024 22:35

kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:30

I think / assume this to be the case, although I fail to see anywhere where they actually state that. Indeed all i can find supports the simple distance rule.

Show quote history

This may be your grounds for appeal. If they don't make it clear what their criteria is, and if by putting the third school down you effectively ruled out the first one without having any way of knowing this, then this isn't a fair process.

I would take screenshots of the web pages now, before they update them, so you have proof of what they say now.

Or, PDF the relevant pages and save them (go to print it, then select PDF as the printer).

Or, save them on a web archive like this one (use the "save page now" box https://archive.org/web/

Internet Archive: Wayback Machine

https://archive.org/web

Original poster
kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:33

YireosDodeAver · 02/03/2024 22:26

What do the admissions criteria rules for the school say? If it's a "normal" rule of admitting based on distance then you should have been given a place. However some schools have criteria where they can admit people from further away if the school is their closest school (so a school on the very edge of a city can preferentially admit pupils from the surrounding countryside leaving the city centre schools to take the city-dwelling pupils) but it has to be written out clearly and followed fairly.

If a genuine mistake was made you may not need to appeal - if it's clearly a mistake they should rectify it immediately before appeal if possible. Even if no mistake was made you can always appeal - there's loads of good threads on here with advice about how

From the school website right now: Applicants nearest to <THE SCHOOL>
Children who have applied for a place at <SCHOOL> as measured by the distance from their home address, to the main entrance, measured by the shortest walking route

OP posts:
Lougle · 02/03/2024 22:33

(iv) Applicants to their nearest school - those children who have applied for a place at the nearest school to their home address measured by the shortest walking route

(v) All other applicants

From your LA admissions page @kdandml

Lougle · 02/03/2024 22:32

As @EduCated thought @kdandml , the reason you haven't been offered the place is because children who have applied to their nearest school are prioritised above other children (after the usual LAC/EHCP). So those children who live further away from first choice that have been offered the place, have been offered it because your first choice school is their nearest school.

NowYouSee · 02/03/2024 22:30

You need to carefully read the over subscription criteria that the council publish to understand the rules they should apply. Without this the email doesn’t make sense.

For example in my council there are catchment areas for each regular (non religious and non selective) comprehensive school and the areas do not overlap, you are only in one. On the criteria being in catchment trumps being outside it even if geographically closer.

Original poster
kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:30

PuttingDownRoots · 02/03/2024 22:26

Does your area give priority to children for whom its the closest school?

You can still appeal on the grounds that the school is more suitable.

I think / assume this to be the case, although I fail to see anywhere where they actually state that. Indeed all i can find supports the simple distance rule.

OP posts: