Are London schools getting rid of students they don't want?

The OP's question was "I've got several friends who are convinced children are being bullied out of top London state secondary schools before the 6th form, because their grades weren't 'good enough'." and you answered: "I think this has always been the case in London...".

Apologies if you were replying to someone else, not the op, but it wasn't clear.

Where did I mention bullying @pearandplum ? I was saying that yes schools prune their intake in London and it has been that way for a long time.

But it isn't "bullying" to have an academic sixth form that is only suitable for a proportion of students, is it? To call it that just demonstrates a victim mentality.

The system has changed in England. A levels are no longer modular - they now have a single set of exams at the end rather than being split into A1 and A2 exams. AS levels still exist, but fewer schools offer them.

In Wales, A levels are still modular.

I think this has always been the case in London. Some of the very top - like QE Boys - have fewer places in 6th form than in GCSE and the entry criteria is internal exams not GCSE results. Others with sibling or distance policies have high entry criteria so many of the “comprehensive” aspects are removed in the 6th form.

Interesting how this works in a county where schools finish at 16 like mine. The colleges are all effectively selective (minimum grades and interviews, sorry ‘course advisory sessions’) and I wonder how this tallies with the legal requirement for children to be in some form of education or training until 18.

No idea if its different now, but 20 years ago the Kent grammar I attended pushed all of us to do 4 AS levels and drop one for A2. I couldn't decide what to drop - I liked and was getting good grades in them all. Our English Lit teacher told us that our workload would be roughly the same as it is now, so if we were managing then it was OK to consider 4...

The HOY sat the whole year in the common room and got us all to call out the subject we were dropping in front of everyone. I was the first to say I wasn't dropping anything. The HOY sniggered and said "good luck with that".

The same school asked my friend to leave halfway through year 12 as they felt she wasn't coping. She had dyspraxia and some other SEN but was doing fine (and this was a top grammar so she wasnt tanking her grades...). What they meant was, they werent prepared to support her and were worried she would wreck their year results.

Her mum squeezed her into a school 30 miles away, the commute was brutal. She ended up with 6 A2 levels all at A grade, not the 3 offered as standard at my school. My school cared only about league tables and not supporting individual students.

They could get into trouble for this if families complained.

Some students start with 4 A Levels then drop one if they struggle - it's generally considered to be better to get high grades in 3 A levels than lower grades in 4 - but dropping an A level is usually a mutual conversation/decision between the student and the school rather than anyone being "bullied".

If they get the grades, they have to be allowed to stay on. The school will have set the bar high to manage the numbers. If more students meet the grades than expected then they would have to go over numbers. (However, they are allowed to tell students that the course they want to do is full and offer them an alternative course that they may not want to do - that's a less visible way of managing numbers).

If they don't get the grades, they aren't being "managed out", they're just not getting in.

Couple of high performing schools near us simply don’t enter children who aren’t going to get top grades.

not unusual for kids who get B’s in a’level mocks to not be allowed to sit the actual exams.

DD is at a London comprehensive that only has enough sixth form places for a quarter of the year group.

Currently you need a minimum of six 7-9 grades including English and Maths, and the subjects you intend to take, to even be considered for a place.

So I expect that does 'manage out' a fair number of the kids they might not want in the sixth form by default, but if kid manages to get the grades then I can't see that they could?

Schools are still funder per pupil, but that funding drops post 16 (generally, there are some factors that complicate it post 16).

In many schools, the lower school subsidises the sixth form to an extent, but the sixth form is a flagship which helps the school recruit- hence wanting to keep students who will do well!

What do you mean by "bullied out"? Is this after they have been accepted to sixth form?

All state schools are allowed to be selective in sixth form, and they are also allowed to have specific entry requirements for different courses e.g. they can say 5 x Grade 5 for general sixth form entry, but you need e.g. a 6 at GCSE science to study that science at A-level and so on.

I wouldn't call this bullying, and I'd say to a greater/lesser extent it happens at every sixth form across the country. A-levels/Level 3 study are not right for every child, and in London I would assume there are some great alternatives, although of course I may be wrong!

If students are being pushed out after having started their A-levels, that's a very different issue, and shouldn't be happening in a state school.

@OnlyTheBravest my school (a high performing comp) offers 2 BTECs and would love to offer more, but can't afford to take on ring-fenced specialist BTEC staff. The existing BTEC courses are run by teachers with specialisms in other subjects, who are being given appropriate training. The courses are aimed at students who want to mix A levels and BTECs. Students who want to do purely BTEC will be better off at one of the local colleges. They have specialist BTEC teachers with many more years of experience, and much better resources.

Schools need play to their strengths and use their resources efficiently. Having a sixth form focussed on traditional academic subjects helps them to attract good subject specialists who can teach in all year groups.

Minimum GSCE number or scores for admission to a sixth form are nothing new. Though it is valid to question the impact of this and whether it disproportionally excludes people from certain ethnic backgrounds or areas.

Two separate issues are being conflated in this thread:

• The op @RB1981 asked if students are being "bullied" out of schools. The answer seems to be that there is no evidence of it and, if there was, the schools would get into trouble. A few people have said they have "heard" it happens, or that they read a headline a few years ago, but so far nobody has mentioned any direct or recent experience.

• As @OnlyTheBravest says, some schools have a high academic bar for entry to their sixth forms. This is perfectly legal so long as their admissions policies comply with the Admissions Code and they follow them correctly. However, this is not "bullying". Schools routinely advise all year 11 students to have a backup plan in case they don't meet the grades.

Not true. Whilst there are a number of factors involved in calculating funding for sixth forms, the biggest factor by far is the number of students and how good the sixth form is at retaining those students.

It is, however, true for all schools that funding is determined at a fixed point in the previous year. For schools, for example, funding for 2024/25 is determined based on pupil numbers at the autumn census which took place in October 2023. Any increase or reduction in pupil numbers after that is not taken into account, although there is a mechanism whereby an institution may get more funding if it has experienced exceptional growth in student numbers.

They are still funded per pupil. However, the funding is tighter than it used to be because they need to deliver more for the money and because wages have risen.

@RB1981 This behaviour has gone on for years. Some state schools do not offer BTechs/ or any other qualification aside from A-Levels and even then the A-Levels on offer are the "traditional academic ones". Some set the admission criteria for entrance to 6th form with very high grades requirements, in full knowledge that those on lower grades have no chance of admission.

They were funded per pupil. Now they have set budgets to manage themselves.

They can’t get enough teachers for the previously varied choices.

They need to trim back the same as any other business. They aren’t going to keep those less likely to do well.

Sixth form colleges are not schools and are not required to follow the Admissions Code. Schools must follow the Code. As part of this, they must publish their admission arrangements (which define how decisions are made) and follow those arrangements. Any failed applicant is entitled to an appeal, which is heard by an independent appeal panel. If it becomes apparent to the panel that behaviour was taken into account in making the decision, the appeal will go very badly for the school.

Yes, it's true of all state schools, including 11-18 schools. Unless a child has been formally excluded, they cannot be prevented from transferring from year 11 to year 12 if they meet the academic criteria.

Internal students must take priority for places.

Schools can't use external applicants' behaviour reports into account for admissions purposes (see clause 1.9g of the code).

That's really interesting. I doubt that would work in reality though. Is this the case for post 16 too?

There has to be a criteria and if the grades are met but there's 2 kids one with good behaviour and other not, the school is allowed to not offer them a place in their sixth form if that's their admissions criteria.

@Foxesandsquirrels state schools are not allowed to have behaviour clauses in their admissions policies. It would breach the national admissions code. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/school-admissions-code--2

This year, and the next couple of years, are the massive baby boom now going through post 16 and then uni. They were a huge problem at reception, then secondary allocation and now the same will be happening for post 16. There has to be a criteria and if the grades are met but there's 2 kids one with good behaviour and other not, the school is allowed to not offer them a place in their sixth form if that's their admissions criteria. Being encouraged to look elsewhere is not the same as being managed out though.