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Secondary education

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Original poster

If your child won a place at a competitive secondary….

135 replies

LeopardPJS · 11/11/2023 21:57

… was it obvious from the start of primary school that they were academically gifted?
I’m just curious because in year two, my daughter is sort of middle of the pack/ not great on reading / definitely not one of the top kids in her class (though she is lovely and creative and we wouldn’t have her any other way obviously!)
She is an enthusiastic learner who loves school, and clearly takes a lot of the learning in, but is only ‘at expectation’ for most subjects and is ‘at the lower end of expectation’ for reading (though not actually ‘behind’ according to the teacher just lacking a bit of fluency and confidence)
I think this all probably means she isn’t going to be super academic, but my mum thinks it’s too early to tell and academic talents can make a later showing.
Who is right?!

OP posts:
Hughs · 14/11/2023 12:49

I feel you also don’t want them to lose heart by getting 1/10 every week

This is really key - primary school is so reading / writing focused that DD actually began to think she was stupid when she wasn't. Keep her confidence high!

PreplexJ · 14/11/2023 12:32

"does anyone know if that’s true of london state selectives or indies?"

Age standardisation is true for state selective at 11+, and academic selective private schools too though more subjective.

Original poster
LeopardPJS · 14/11/2023 12:29

Gahh @Hughs I suspect my daughter might be a bit like yours! Great that she is doing so well now.

@ErrolTheDragon thats fascinating, does anyone know if that’s true of london state selectives or indies? Would be great for DD if so!

@snazzychair glad to hear I’m not the only person worried about these things as early as year two 🙈 my parents sound similar to yours. I also try to be relaxed about spelling tests etc but it’s a fine balance if you have an Augusts born kid who isn’t naturally acing everything as I feel you also don’t want them to lose heart by getting 1/10 every week so a bit of practice is probably useful? We were equally relaxed on her reading the boring school reading books they sent home if she didn’t want to initially, just figured if we kept reading things she liked at home to her it would fall into place, but then at the end of last year when she started coming home saying ‘I’m not good at reading, x y and z are reading chapter books and they can read better than me’ and we realised we needed to give her more support, or she would lose her confidence. It’s so hard to get the balance right! But totally agree with you re: supporting them in what they are really passionate about and we try to do same

OP posts:
Hughs · 14/11/2023 12:02

DD always seemed bright to me but didn't do very well at primary school, she is summer born and was late to read and write. She improved slowly and by Y6 was almost in the middle of the year. She is in Y13 now, predicted 3 x A* and an A at A level and waiting to hear whether she has an interview for Oxford. It wasn't until Y9-10 that her school performance reflected her academic ability.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/11/2023 11:23

I believe some (maybe not all?) 11+ type scores are age standardized, to level the playing field for the years range of birth dates.

snazzychair · 14/11/2023 11:03

I'm really enjoying this post OP. You sound very level headed and I have an August born son in year 2. I have all the same questions and concerns that you do. It's really great to hear the experiences of others. I had very pushy parents - they wanted the best for me academically but didn't encourage me with other things so I am very much encouraging my son with whatever he is interested in and trying not to push too much with weekly spelling tests.

It's good to hear that kids just flourish at their own pace and hear all the examples.

Drayne · 14/11/2023 09:35

I would say that you need to get the balance of intervention right. With mine I gave extra support where they needed it, but I didn’t make their work my responsibility. For example, after about the age of 6 it wasn’t my job to remind them about spelling tests. I think this is important as you have to give them space to develop their own motivation, which imo is as important as natural intelligence. A child who is motivated to learn can work for 11+. If your child is not motivated you’ll be fighting each other all the time.

SmallestInTheClass · 14/11/2023 09:31

Round near us I'd say there are two types of kids who get into the selective grammars. The above average but not exceptional who get lots of tutoring to pass the tests well. And the academically gifted who can pass the test without so much support. I think if your DD is middle of the pack, she could probably pass the tests with lots of coaching and tutoring. Be aware it can take over your life for the year before the exams (by the time ours had done a couple of out of school activities and then tutoring and practicing the tests, there wasn't a lot of time for just relaxing downtime after school). And one of our friends did all of this and then their son didn't get a place. He was heartbroken and it's been really difficult for them. They ended up paying for a private school but not everyone can do that.

Original poster
LeopardPJS · 14/11/2023 09:26

@TheOutlaws sadly yes as it’s another 35 mins from Marylebone to his office so in total would be at least 2.5 hours a day commuting. He works 7am- 6pm five days a week in the office and can’t work remotely, so I think doing that commute on top would probably drive the poor man into an (even earlier) grave. Also he wouldn’t see the kids in the week. We talked about it, as we know how fab the schools are where you are and how lovely it is (have family there) but we just couldn’t make it work unfortunately.

OP posts:
TheOutlaws · 14/11/2023 08:55

@LeopardPJS

DH commutes from Oxford Parkway (Kidlington): 45 minutes to Marylebone. Is this too far?

settlingsusan · 14/11/2023 08:55

"Children who get top marks throughout, from primary through to university, are reckoned to be <2%. Some peak at a younger age than others - for example, research shows that there is no direct correlation between 11+ scores and GCSE grades (grammar schools have this information but obviously aren't over-keen to share it)."

You can see this if you look at non-selective private schools in grammar areas. There's a private school locally who takes pupils who fail 11+ and a lot with SEN/ high sports scholarship levels and gets very similar results to the grammar, better even than some. It's a good way to show how badly the state sector is failing, particularly those with SEN who can't afford to go private.

Original poster
LeopardPJS · 14/11/2023 08:44

@TheOutlaws moving to Oxfordshire sounds bloody lovely but sadly DH’s job is very tied to London and the hours are too long to make commuting possible

OP posts:
Iwilltrytobepositive · 14/11/2023 08:33

August born son was hopeless in year 2. We all thought he was not at all academic and seemed to just grunt and play with blocks. Needed speech therapy. Not interested in school in fact nothing much but lego. Daughter from young age referred to as "freaky genius child" as speaking at 6 months. Fast forward both in super selectives and son just applied to Cambridge - couldn't be more shocked!

Paediatrician recommended I see the educational psychologist for daughter to check she was being stimulated enough and she was completely unconcerned about her, but wanted to know about son. Told me usually siblings within 5 IQ points of each other and I shouldn't assume he wasn't v bright too. Have to admit was very sceptical.

Turned out with son it started to show around age 8 but still struggled to sit through eleven plus - has done well in secondary school but has consistently outperformed teacher expectations.

Original poster
LeopardPJS · 14/11/2023 08:27

Thanks @UnicornBrights that is a really fair point - I think both options (staying and moving) feel a bit like a gamble honestly!

@CurlewKate so the main options where we are are sitting academic selection tests for Latymer or Mary mags (both state) and then there are various academically selective Indies, such as forest, channing and city of London school for girls, which she could try for.

OP posts:
TheOutlaws · 14/11/2023 08:08

@LeopardPJS Sorry just read your update! Is moving to an area with better comps an option? I’m in Oxfordshire and we have lots here (Oxford itself less so).

TheOutlaws · 14/11/2023 08:06

None of it matters.

I was an early reader and musically extremely talented. I didn’t enjoy secondary at all, despite it being geared towards my interests. My DM was pushy with me, less so with my brother, and he now earns four times my salary. He is neurotypical, though, whereas I have undiagnosed ND.

My DC are exceeding expectations, but DS1 is also ASD/ADHD. He needs downtime, and lots of it. He’ll go to the excellent local comp in September, where his needs will be met and he’ll hopefully find something he loves to do.

Life isn’t a competition.

gotomomo · 14/11/2023 07:55

For dd1 it was obvious very young, taught herself to read by 3. But by a levels her dsis had overtaken her academically despite her sister really struggling through primary as in 4 years behind in English at age 11

Greengrass8 · 14/11/2023 07:53

SwLondonMummies · 12/11/2023 20:02

I could tell Prince George was destined for Eton from before his birth.

😂

itsfinallytime · 14/11/2023 07:50

In that case apologies @LeopardPJS .

Just be careful not to hot house her so much that she doesn't enjoy primary school. They are only young once.

Hope it works out for your DD.

Greengrass8 · 14/11/2023 07:48

Pinkpinkplonk · 11/11/2023 23:46

They all develop at different times and have different things which motivate drive and inspire them at different points in their development. Never assume anything, never give up on them and certainly never stop encouraging them!
Because you never know when they will fly

Edited

Well said.

CurlewKate · 14/11/2023 07:42

What sort of selective secondary school are you talking about?

UnicornBrights · 14/11/2023 07:37

I can understand you wanting to know about moving @LeopardPJS. Thought I'd just share that it's also schools that change in that time. When my DS was in reception, the local schools were all thought of as awful places and everyone wanted to be out of borough. By the time he was in Y5 they had changed a lot and there was much more good local choice. And now the one that was amongst the most shunned is super popular and everyone's first choice.

That might feel like too much of a gamble for you though!

Original poster
LeopardPJS · 14/11/2023 07:35

Oh thank you @Stokey ! Will do

OP posts:
Stokey · 14/11/2023 07:25

@LeopardPJS feel free to PM me about specifics.

Original poster
LeopardPJS · 14/11/2023 07:17

Thanks @itsfinallytime and it is great to hear that your DS has done so well.
However - you’ve misjudged the source of my anxiety - I don’t actually worry about the a-levels/ Universiry part. If I had to guess now, I’d say she will probably go to art school (like 2/3 of my family have) - it’s the area where she has always clearly excelled from a young age and I would be more than happy for her to do that when the time comes.
My anxiety is actually just that like most parents, I want her to have access to a happy experience at a nice secondary school where she is supported to achieve all she can, creatively and otherwise (and bloom/ peak/ find her stride academically later, on if that’s what she is likely to do, as your son did and @UnicornBrights son did also)
And my worry is that because of the way the system is in London, and because we’re out of catchment sadly for the many good comprehensives in north London, her chances of getting into to the secondary schools where I think she’d have the best chance of that support will ultimately, whether we like it or not, hang on her academic performance in some tests at age 10 (as she will be as august born when she sits any secondary school entrance tests)
So unfortunately for me, yes it does matter whether between now and year six she’s likely to progress enough academically to pass those tests or not. Because if it’s really unlikely she will do well enough in those tests if she is middle of the pack in year two - and as many people on this thread seem to feel that they sort of knew from reception/ year one that their child was one of the top performers etc - we’d probably be better off seriously thinking about moving into the catchment of a very good comp.
Which to be honest I hate the idea of, as I love where we live now, I love her primary school and the community around it. I’d much rather stay and hope for the best.
So essentially by starting the thread I wanted to get a clearer sense of how much her current performance was an accurate predictor of success at secondary school admissions time. I don’t worry about her in the long term at all because I’m not obsessed with Russel group/ Oxbridge or anything like that. I’m a big believer that are many ways to succeed in life, not all of which are academic, and at 18 she will have a vastly bigger range of choices (including ones where her artistic talent and creativity will count for much more than it does in the secondary admissions process!) and will I’m sure make the right ones for her.
I just want her to have a happy, calm and supportive secondary education. It shouldn’t be this complicated, but as we all know, it unfortunately is (especially in London!)

OP posts: