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Original poster

Dyscalculia and reasonable adjustments

58 replies

MarmeeMarch4 · 04/11/2023 18:16

My daughter was diagnosed with dyscalculia in 2022, at the very end of year 4. She is now in year 6 and passed all areas of the Kent Test except - surprise surprise - maths. Her Ed Psych report shows above average cognitive ability in all areas, and a specific problem with number (not shape, geometry, logic etc, which are all in the same range as her other abilities).

Going forward, for any appeal we may or may not lodge on her behalf to a grammar school, but also for SATS and general secondary school education, we know that there are particular adjustments that would enable her to access higher level maths questions. These are: a number line, a times table square, and a calculator that shows workings. If she had those, which would take away the problem of working memory which is a central feature of the condition, she is perfectly capable of understanding the calculations and the logic of any given maths problem. But these are not allowed in the UK (they are in parts of the US and in some other European countries).

I know some of you will say 'she just needs to learn her times tables' etc, 'and if she can't she just isn't good at maths'. But actually, without these things, she can't even try the higher level questions or begin to think about more complex reasoning. With them, she is capable of so much more. It's like she's just stuck behind this stupid barrier, which is actually meaningless (it is perfectly possible, even in a career that involves complex maths, to use a calculator and/or have a times table square on your desk - these are very low level skills to do with memory rather than actual maths. She understands the principles, but struggles to retain number facts). It feels to me as if understanding and resources for dyslexia are so much better than for dyscalculia, which is so poorly understood by the education system. And it also feels like this is a barrier to children actually being able to access large parts of the maths curriculum because of some needless ideological bullshit about calculators and dumbing down, or the current government's obsession with rote learning. Has anybody been in this position, and has anybody found a way around it?

I know that in the SATS, and even at GCSE, none of these accommodations are allowed as it is felt they would unfairly advantage children with dyscalculia. But I also feel like it is just straight up disability discrimination. I'm just looking for a sense of whether there are other people out there dealing with a similar issue, really ... as well as any potential solutions people might have.

Sorry for the essay, and TIA for any constructive advice!

OP posts:
Odingodof · 06/11/2023 22:12

@MarmeeMarch4

Yet another child (along with my own and others I know of) saved from phonics by covid and finally allowed to learn to read.

Op I share and feel your frustration. Our education system does it's best in middle of the road but with small adjustment could simply be so much better

We need to arm teachers with information.

Bimblesalong · 05/11/2023 21:33

You might be lucky and have a good referral route on the nhs locally. Otherwise, you might find a private practitioner here:
https://www.babo.co.uk/map

British Association of Behavioural Optometrists - Map of Members

https://www.babo.co.uk/map

Original poster
MarmeeMarch4 · 05/11/2023 20:45

No - just googled it and will get that checked. Thank you!

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Bimblesalong · 05/11/2023 18:11

Given that you raise visual tracking, has her optician referred you through to an orthoptist for a behavioural optometry check?

Original poster
MarmeeMarch4 · 05/11/2023 15:03

Sorry - still processing - good idea to focus on the other deficits. I will give that some serious thought

OP posts:
Original poster
MarmeeMarch4 · 05/11/2023 15:01

This is a really helpful post - thank you so much.
Asyou describe it, this is exactly my daughter. Her Ed psych report shows that she has issues with number (and recommends a calculator) but also working memory, visual tracking (for which she has had a year of intervention at school) and some deficits in phonological memory etc. She was slow to learn to read and always struggled with phonics despite very good support at home (her other two sisters of reading age - one twelve, one six - have both been greater depth and whizzing at reading from the start and there was an obvious difference in the way she was processing the information - she couldn’t hear rhymes for a long time, for example, though she could by 8 or 9). But then in lockdown in year 2 she suddenly clicked with English - not doing phonics but simply reading a lot at home - and became a really avid reader. She was already quite a deep and logical thinker (she likes to take her time with a problem, for instance, and learn her way to look at it from many angles - unlike her older sister who just wants to know the right answer and move on, and who finds school much easier). Her report says that her above average verbal ability - and especially her vocabulary, her ability to detect inference, etc - may be compensating for her phonological issues in English and giving her high scores rhat disguise some issues, and to keep an eye out for any further discrepancies as she develops. She passed the English part of the Kent Test, which includes detecting spelling and grammar errors but not actually writing spellings or any sentences (and also includes comprehension), pretty comfortably. She passed verbal and nonverbal reasoning though only just.

Partly, as you say, using a number line or a times table square will not change the underlying issue with number. And the issues you outline are exactly the kinds of issues she has. But it does, at least when we work together at home, take away the anxiety around factual recall (ie literally being able to work backwards through numbers, or being able to recall 7 x 6, or being able to move from negative to positive numbers with more ease). And, taking away those issues, it would give her more time and space to concentrate on a greater range of maths questions. The Ed psych report specifically suggests a calculator in her case - school said no as they felt it would stop her learning calculations to the best of her ability, which I do understand. But I also think it would help speed up calculations she has to count with by ones, for instance, and give her more time to access the wider curriculum.

I have been doing some research and the Royal College of Nursing and the NHS, as well as many universities, as well as the Scottish education system, allow these kinds of adjustments - but English schools do not. It certainly couldn’t hurt to try.

i am going to print your post and keep it for reference - thank you!

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Bimblesalong · 05/11/2023 09:31

Good post maple and will no doubt help lurking readers too. Difficulties in number sense are very rarely the only issue and there are most often difficulties in memory, processing, etc accompanying them, alongside other concerns such as maths anxiety which has developed alongside issues.

MapleSyrupWaffles · 05/11/2023 09:24

I've worked with many children with maths difficulties; very few have had a specific deficit in number sense, but those that have wouldn not have found that aspect of it to be mitigated by use of a calculator. Their issue was really in terms of understanding number - recognising, for example, that if you're subtracting, you can't get a number bigger than you started with; or that if a number is a factor of 100 bigger than what would be sensible, it must be wrong; or that you don't need to do a written working or count on your fingers every time for something like 60+4 because of the way the place value system/language of numbers is constructed. Those are the sorts of issues they have, and a calculator doesn't really fix that part of it. A number line can help, or physical number apparatus - but not particularly in a test situation. Those might help get the right answer to a question at times, but not really let them access higher level maths problems, because it's the understanding of the lower level problems that is the issue.

However, most of them - along with a great many others with maths difficulty but not dyscalculia - do also have working memory deficits, as well as some phonological deficits that make auditory repetition of number facts and tables - or copying down questions, remembering part answers to questions etc - difficult. Some of them also have sequencing difficulties that impact reading/writing down numbers correctly, etc. And those areas can be helped by calculators, by allowing jottings on mental arithmetic tests, by allowing number squares, having readers/scribes, etc. I think if a child is showing good understanding of high level maths problems with these adaptations alone when working in class, then allowing them on an exam would be sensible, particularly things like a table square on an otherwise non-calculator exam. I have taught someone who was going to study maths at university who wanted a table square. There were actually very few places that she needed it, as most of the maths she was doing on her exams by that stage was very abstract, but there were the occasional time where she felt it would be helpful (possibly more as anxiety reduction to know it was there). But she would definitely not have described herself as dyscalculic, but more deficits with working memory and possible dyslexia.

So I would concentrate more on the deficits in short term memory and possibly phonological deficits that are known to impact auditory repetition, because it is clearer how mitigating those deficits could still allow someone to understand and succeed at higher level maths problems. Focusing on a deficit in number is more likely to make someone think that the adaptations are going to replace the area that is being tested (even if you don't agree).

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Original poster
MarmeeMarch4 · 04/11/2023 22:44

I missed this one bimbles - yes, she goes to an ordinary state primary school but it is just wonderful in so many respects. Too long a story to go into here, but in so many different ways they have done so much for her (and her older sister, now at secondary), just as a matter of course. We have been very very lucky.

OP posts:
Catacapa · 04/11/2023 22:37

Soontobe60 · 04/11/2023 21:48

Regarding testing, I really don’t know what the solution is. For example, if a big part of the paper depends on the ability to apply the 4 rules of number to up to 4 digit numbers, does a calculator show an understanding of number or does it just show an understanding of how to use a calculator? In the past, calculators were allowed in the maths papers, but they were taken out. The irony is, many of my pupils can carry out written calculations with 4 digits easily, but when it comes to reasoning they struggle to figure out what to actually do with the numbers given.
With literacy, a huge push was made in the introduction of synthetics phonics teaching, and this has had a massive impact on literacy levels. There needs to be a similar focus in maths, and I’m not sure the current phase of whole class teaching introducing lots of different methods is suitable for all learners.
Children need to be screened at their early stages of maths learning to identify any possible areas of concern.

And the ability to do something with the results of that early screening. I don't have much doubt what issues various children in my class are facing, but I can't teach pre-Reception level and Y5 level maths and everything in between at the same time. I have a small class and it's still completely impossible.

Original poster
MarmeeMarch4 · 04/11/2023 22:29

soontobe that makes a lot of sense. As you say, it depends what the aim is. To my mind, we get stuck on these mental arithmetic problems and are blocking children who struggle with that (fair enough, and if there are papers in that, of course no calculators etc) from learning harder and also more important things because of that.

anyway, this thread has been helpful - some good tips, but also good to know I’m not missing something obvious in terms of support

OP posts:
Original poster
MarmeeMarch4 · 04/11/2023 21:50

Thank you. She already has additional time set up - or rather, she did for the Kent Test and her school are on it so I assume the same will apply for the SATs and will double check (not that the SATs really matter for her, of course). I just think how can you say to a child ‘you aren’t stupid or silly or bad at maths - you just learn it a different way’ and then have absolutely no way of adjusting for that. She uses manipulatives in class but again that won’t apply for tests …

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Soontobe60 · 04/11/2023 21:48

Regarding testing, I really don’t know what the solution is. For example, if a big part of the paper depends on the ability to apply the 4 rules of number to up to 4 digit numbers, does a calculator show an understanding of number or does it just show an understanding of how to use a calculator? In the past, calculators were allowed in the maths papers, but they were taken out. The irony is, many of my pupils can carry out written calculations with 4 digits easily, but when it comes to reasoning they struggle to figure out what to actually do with the numbers given.
With literacy, a huge push was made in the introduction of synthetics phonics teaching, and this has had a massive impact on literacy levels. There needs to be a similar focus in maths, and I’m not sure the current phase of whole class teaching introducing lots of different methods is suitable for all learners.
Children need to be screened at their early stages of maths learning to identify any possible areas of concern.

Original poster
MarmeeMarch4 · 04/11/2023 21:45

Thanks evesix - exactly. It’s just so frustrating that there is so little understanding or support. My understanding was that dyscalculia can be complicated to diagnose but if there is an issue with number that doesn’t fit the child’s overall profile, that is a strong indicator. But you get the diagnosis and are immediately returned to being treated as if it’s just general inability and there js no specific support. Of course, ‘general inability’ could also mean myriad different things. I suppose I am facing six months in which I have been told if we make a specific intervention and it works, she’ll have a shot at an appeal. But there aren’t any interventions or adjustments that will be made for her in test conditions. So it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy

OP posts:
Talkwhilstyouwalk · 04/11/2023 21:43

Agree she should be allowed a calculator. My guess is that she won't be though.

Talkwhilstyouwalk · 04/11/2023 21:41

Could she try using rhymes to learn times tables as well? There are tricks and really a lot of it is to do with memory and rhythm. For example "I ate and ate and was sick on the floor, 8x8 is sixty four". And next door numbers 5678 56=7x8. Just a couple of examples for the harder ones.

Hopefully the Ed psych can help her.

Original poster
MarmeeMarch4 · 04/11/2023 21:39

Soontobe that is my exact point - these things would make an enormous difference and actually allow her to do much more difficult maths, but they are not allowed …

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EveSix · 04/11/2023 21:27

OP, you and your DD have my sympathies. DC1 also has a diagnosis of dyscalculia. As a primary school teacher, I watched with fascination and desperation in equal measure as she failed to get the most basic of mathematical building blocks, and, having nothing to build on, was unable to process subsequent concepts, despite great interventions both at school and home. She's been diligently practicing her x tables for 7 years and is still really shaky on anything other than 1s, 10s and 11s. She has always had a remarkable capacity for remembering non-numerical facts and sequences.

The lack of adjustments is problematic and indicative of the lack of understanding of dyscalculia (but actually, adjusting for time in assessments is a very blunt tool for supporting dyslexic learners too). I think Noble is right; there is a perception in education that dyscalculia is really just a manifestation of a broader SEN picture of poor working memory and slow processing. Being in a grammar school area must further compound your frustration.

Soontobe60 · 04/11/2023 21:22

MarmeeMarch4 · 04/11/2023 19:19

Thank you - these are really helpful replies. I have the Ronit Bird book which is really helpful.

dyscalculia is a recognised SEN and the idea it isn’t, as one of the posters has put, is one of the problems I think. For years we were just told her anxiety about maths was her August birthday, her general shyness, etc. It was as clear as day during lockdown that she can do everything fine, but has a real barrier around comprehending the value and meaning of numbers. That is the definition and it is accepted widely. As I said, her ability in all other cognitive areas is fine - we have an Ed psych report that clearly explains that. But all the time people don’t really count or recognise it, necessary adjustments are not made.

great idea on the ruler. She uses fingers for tables but it takes time. She already has extra time in tests and did in the Kent Test (will in the SATs).

It would take far too long for her to make a x tables grid in a timed test, even with additional time (25% in SATs) and if she isnt secure in her x tables then she will most likely make errors anyway. In addition, something like a ruler would be no use in the arithmetic paper - the size of the calculations are too big.
One way I check whether Y6 children would benefit for additional time in any of the SATs papers is to give them a paper to complete in pencil then as soon as the time is up, swap for a pen and give them a further 25% time. Then when I mark it, I mark all the pencil answers first, then the pen answers. The vast majority of children who cant complete the paper in the given time only score 1 or 2 marks with the additional time.
A thorough analysis of how she answers questions on test papers not under test conditions will give some insight as to where her mathematical weaknesses lie. A use of a reader may well be beneficial too I find.

Bimblesalong · 04/11/2023 21:14

MarmeeMarch, it’s brilliant to hear that there is a teacher at your daughter’s school with dyscalculia training. Really chuffed to hear that schools are giving the SpLD the support it needs. Training is still in the early days but the specialists are making it through to educational settings.
Must have made such a difference to have a knowledgable member of staff on side.

Soontobe60 · 04/11/2023 21:10

for SATS and general secondary school education, we know that there are particular adjustments that would enable her to access higher level maths questions. These are: a number line, a times table square, and a calculator that shows workings. If she had those, which would take away the problem of working memory which is a central feature of the condition

for KS2 SATS the only thing she would be allowed would be extra time, a scribe or a reader. She would not be allowed any of the equipment you have listed.

Bimblesalong · 04/11/2023 21:10

You’re spot on with comments on the confusion in education, noble giraffe. There are a few definitions floating around, which is one of the reasons that the working party was brought about to redefine and to evaluate how to assess for it.

I’d agree also from my own experience in schools in that I met/ meet very few children with true dyscalculia (ie number sense difficulties) than maths difficulties due to the range of reasons you mention.

We are much better at knowing how to support dyslexia than maths difficulties, hence the issues the OP is experiencing with exam arrangements, etc.

Original poster
MarmeeMarch4 · 04/11/2023 21:08

Thanks bimblesalong.

Noblegiraffe whatever you might think, and I am sure you have plenty of experience, it isn’t really relevant to my daughter as she has a diagnosis from an educational psychologist who can also claim many years’ experience, my daughter’s teacher at school has dyscalculia training and is in full agreement (I am more concerned about the future as we face secondary school), and as bimbles suggested, the British Dyslexia Association and indeed the official list of Specific Learning Difficulties agree that dyscalculia is one. I understand that there are always diagnostic issues around these things - in fact, dyslexia is much more heavily diagnosed among middle-class children than working-class children, many of whom are just considered to be ‘low ability’ when that might not be the case. Nonetheless, the fact that you have only taught five children with an official diagnosis is irrelevant to me as a) you are just one person and b) my daughter has an official diagnosis. Kent County Council accepted this and gave her additional time in the Kent Test.

and again, I would say that this kind of attitude really doesn’t help. Just because something is relatively misunderstood, doesn’t mean it isn’t real.

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