Secondary application from abroad

Thanks @maplesirrup for reading this long email :) There is evidence though (not in our hands) as apparently all phone calls are recorded. We already asked for a transcript (not for all, just a very recent one). The asking for transcript was conveniently overlooked in the reply, so good shout.

But again, you are right, it is also important to concentrate on the parts we can change.

So it seems the LA's issue is not asking for proof of address, the issue is with the address full stop. @prh47bridge sorry to quote you again, it just that you are very knowledgable.

I understand from you, that if the LA thinks that the address is fraudelent they can change it to overseas. However, it seems they beleive the future address cannot be used at all (with or without proof) and current address must be used.

This also contradicts what they previously said btw.

Do we keep banging on our rights using a future address?

Also just out of interest, for people moving withing England, could they really not use future address, even of proof of purchase or rental agreement available? What is your take on that?

Thanks again!

Is this too aggressive? I feel like banging my head against a brick wall. I would prefer phone calls but those didn't help either.

Finally a reply arrived from Admissions:

Thank you for contacting LA regarding your application for a school place for (child).

As you currently reside overseas, this address must be used for the purposes of processing your application. Page 10 of LA guide for parents (link) gives details of what is accepted as a home address.

The application states that you are expected to arrive in the UK in (date before September). The address will be updated on the application at this stage.

Kind regards

My draft reply (the one that may be too agressive)

Hello XXX,

Thank you for your reply.

Please note that your current advice directly contradicts the advice given to (father) on the phone on 17th May 9:57 am and several more follow-up phone calls. It was confirmed for him that the UK address will be used. This led to child’s family choosing their return to the UK date as (date before September).

You are giving contradictory information compared to multiple prior phone calls (17th May 9:57 am, 15 Aug 2023, 13:12, 01 Nov 2023 13:10 and 01 Nov 2023 15:24). Please also note that we are not moving from another LA, but another country, therefore different guidance applies to us. This is also what the LA admissions team has informed us previously.

Can I please ask what is the reason for suddenly changing the information provided and at such a late date? If what you are currently writing is the correct information, it should have been provided to us in the multiple phone calls between parent and admissions team prior to the application deadline.

However, using current address instead of future address also contradicts government advice at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/schools-admissions-applications-from-overseas-children#establishing-home-address where it is stated, that:

• Admission authorities could ask prospective movers or returners where they will be living (see paragraph 2.5 of the school admissions code). This might include whether parents:
• own or rent a property in the area to which they intend to return or move

Finally, in the LA guidance document quoted in your email (link) it is also established on Page 11 that LA will use the address at which the child will live when applying the admission oversubscription criteria, as long as the parent provides some evidence of their intended address. The Page 11 guidance is for Children of UK service personnel and crown servants, which is the same group that is treated the same way as returners to the UK in gov.uk advice at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/schools-admissions-applications-from-overseas-children.

Kind Regards,
pissed off parents (POPs)

Thanks again for all the help and advice. We sent off a follow up email and will take it from here.

Ok, thanks maplesirrup for clearing that up and that I was wrong with April. At least March is sooner.

Do we need to lodge the appeal now or after school places are allocated in April?
Or a complaint?
What would actually work?

@prh47bridge would this work as a follow-up email after today's phone call? Thanks a lot for all the advice!

Good morning,

Thank you for the ongoing discussions about our child’s XXX secondary school application.

We would like to request that XXX’s is application is treated as on time and her UK address is used when processing the application. We applied on time in good faith and there is no lawful basis on which the application can be treated as late.

More specifically please see details below:

17th May 9:57 am, phone call from parent to LA
XXX (father) received advice from LA on the phone on that UK address can be used on the application form. This is in line with government advice.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/schools-admissions-applications-from-overseas-children#processing-school-applications-from-parents-moving-to-england
If someone applies from overseas in the normal admissions round, the LA should consider the application as adequate proof that the parents intend to move to the area and process the application normally. They should not refuse the application simply because the applicant does not currently live in the area. If the LA refuses to process the application, the LA (as admission authority) and any schools that are their own admission authority will not be able to apply their admission arrangements lawfully.

Father is also advised about the following LA criteria that needs to be fulfilled

• Address in England is required for application
• Parent needs to have employment in England
• Child will not lose a year and no need to take any exams to get into the correct year group

15 Aug 2023, 12:51, phone call from parent to LA
Parent asks for further clarification, LA offers to send links in email.

15 Aug 2023, 12:59, email from LA to parent
The LA has provided links to (father) in email. The links don’t have specific advice for any UK nationals returning to England, only for UK service personnel and crown servants. However, as gov.uk pages treat all UK national parents moving to England the same as UK crown servants or UK military families, we in good faith accepted the below paragraph:
XXX County Council will use the address at which the child will live when applying the admission oversubscription criteria, as long as the parent provides some evidence of their intended address. <--this feels like the trickly bit as we did not provide evidence (as I only just read the links now...)

15 Aug 2023, 13:12, phone call from parent to LA
Parent has inquired about the need to move child into primary within LA (and England) before applying to secondary. Parent was advised having a primary school is not a requirement to fill out the application form.
La has confirmed it is sufficient for the child to move to the LA prior to September 2024.

16 Aug 2023, 13:11, phone call from parent to LA
Parent has filled in the application form and the LA was kind enough to go through the form with him. LA has advised to unclick a couple of checkboxes which the parent complied with.
Parent asked if any attachments are required, and the LA advised no attachments required. <--this might help with the above tricky bit

(I need my husband to clarify the last bits, but essentially)
01 Nov 2023 phone call and email from LA to parent
LA informs parent overseas address will be used when processing the application. Please note that parent has not supplied an overseas address during the whole process as it is not relevant. Parent has supplied UK address as per previous advice. The form had a UK adress on, when it was submitted.

02 Nov 2023 phone call from parent to LA
LA confirms they have the address as overseas. Please note again, that this change was made by the LA without our agreement or consent. We have put our UK address down in good faith before the deadline in line with previous advice.
LA also informs parent that if parent was to change the address to UK address, the application will be treated as late. We would like to contest this, as to repeat, the parents applied on time in good faith following LA and government advice to use their UK address. There is no lawful basis on which the application can be treated as late, or the address can be changed without consent.

We are of course happy to provide proof of our UK address, can you please let us know the form of proof required? <-- Should we ask this, or offer something specific ourselves? If so what?

@maplesirrup good advice about being factual, I'll save the dramatics for Mumsnet 😉

@maplesirrup that is equally unfair. However, I do have friends who moved within the UK and after LOADS of back and forth were treated fairly and could apply as normal at new authority. So I would urge all parents moving to try applying in the new authority too if it's a planned move.

Also I was very tired when I posted 😂I appreciate all the lovely advice.

This is amazing advice, thanks you @prh47bridge ! And yes, we agreed not to stress, it is one of those things, we are super lucky and privileged to be even be able to move back and forth, but as you mentioned it's annoying as we followed advice.

treating you as a late applicant is unlikely to make any difference to the outcome if they insist on using your overseas address so don't stress about this too much, but it annoys me when LAs behave like this.

This is very reassuring. I don't understand enough of the application process, to understand what goes on behind the scenes. Yes, moving to England.

@PuttingDownRoots
Does your council have a later deadline for house moves?

Good question! I'll read through the documents again, but I haven't yet found anything about a later deadline. They did told my husband about a deadline, which they called an exceptional late date and wrote the below:

You have mentioned you may be able to move XXX to the UK sooner however as explained if this is not before the exceptional late date (27th November) it would still be the overseas address that is used.

The above is an email my husband asked them to send after the phone call where they informed him that they are putting overseas as address. In the latest phone call today it turned out that even if child moves to UK before end of November (which would be madness and practically very difficult) the application would still count as late, so what's the point??

Honestly it feels someone hates my poor innocent child just because I am not from the UK originally 😥

But I take the point onboard that it is equally hard (if not harder) for people moving house which seems very very unfair. I wouldn't be half as disappointed if we didn't discuss this all well in advance: discussions with the authority started back in May 2023.

Thanks for all the discussion guys!

The phone call happenned and did not go well :(

This is how my husband told me it went:

• Local authority have our address down as "overseas". <-- this is due to them changing it behind our backs, we applied with our UK address.

• If we were to change the address to UK addres, it will count as late application.

😥

Ironically I finally found the part in their own admission procedure which applies to us as it would / should be in our favour:

What if I move to another local authority?

• This is not us, as we aren't moving to or from another authority, we are moving from another country

• We are not crown servants, but in all gov.uk advice, UK nationals returning from abroad (we are all UK nationals) are lumped together with the crown servants group.
• XXXX County Council will use the address at which the child will live when applying the admission oversubscription criteria, as long as the parent provides some evidence of their intended address
• The catch here is that we did not (yet) provide evidence of intended address, as my husband specifically went through the application with them on the phone line by line, asked what else we need to know and they said it was correct and nothing else required.

I'm trying to summarise it in a consice email now to have something in writing with dates and advice given as well as the gov.uk a county specific online info.

It surely can't be right the authority just changed our address withouth our knowledge or consent and won't change it back withouth marking us as late application.

To be fair @maplesirrup I am more thanghappy to give notice now, it is another worry of mine anyway, that what is we can't move back for whatever reason.

Unlikely I know, but still a fear. We very openly discussed at the time of renting our house the plan to return, so the family renting it have unoficcially always known our return date - I would also rather if the renters found other home (they said they plan to move abroad away from the UK, but who knows plans change) and left early than having them in the house until last minute.