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Original poster

Small local independent or state boarding?

45 replies

Howdoesthatevenwork · 22/10/2023 22:58

Every school in our area, as in every school in 20 miles, is below average or well below average. P8 ranging from -1.47 to -0.26. GCSE English and maths 5+ ranges from 4% to 35%. English and maths 4+ ranges from 17% to 64%.

There are 2 things going through our heads at the minute.

  1. We are debating whether spending money would be worthwhile and;
  2. If we spend the money, how do we spend it.
We have an independent school which is tiny. They have around 100 in the whole school, including 6th form, which works out at about 15 per year. So it does guarantee small class sizes. A place is also (almost) guaranteed. They only do IGCSE at GCSE level but the GCSE options are limited and depend on what the cohort chooses. Im not sure whether I like this? The school day is 08:30-17:30. 16:30-17:30 is compulsory extra curricular which doesn’t include homework so that would have to be done after school. The extra curricular is surprisingly limited. It has 88% A*-C grades. This is total entries, not only English and maths. I can’t find the English and maths only results. I would have expected higher for a private school? All do 9 IGCSEs but strangely they only offer double science, one MFL and no music or technologies. They only have history, geography, art, business, drama and PE to choose 3 from for the options. Offers DofE.

The alternative option is a state boarding school. It’s about 45 minutes away from us in the car. Theoretically it’s commutable daily and there are busses that run to it. It would be an hours journey. We could apply for a day place but it is very oversubscribed and if we opt for boarding we would be (almost) guaranteed a place. This would also mean the full life of the school, such as extra curricular, of which there is a huge variety of options, can be taken advantage of which would be tricky if we applied for a day place. There are around 1300 in the school, including 6th form, and a PAN of 210. Class sizes would be the typical 30. The school day is 08:45-15:30 with extra curricular running until 16:30. All do 9 GCSEs and they are very EBacc focussed although there is some wiggle room. They offer triple science, 3 MFLs, music, art and drama, a range of technologies as well as a selection of other subjects including some vocational ones. Offers DofE, John Muir, arts award and STEM award.
They have a P8 of 0.33, English and maths 5+ 61% and at 4+ 83%.

I feel like if we are going to spend money then the state boarding school is possibly the way to go. I was just wondering whether others would come to the same or different conclusion based on the above and why?

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Original poster
Howdoesthatevenwork · 26/10/2023 16:18

Sorry, I should have said - distance. Day places at the SBS are given out on distance.

I am very convinced the quality of education, general standards including behaviour, opportunities in general at the SBS are a lot higher than locally. But, once the 2 hours per day or travelling I’d factored in, would this be better with time spent on studying/tutoring? Homework and studying will still have to be done at the SBS when DC gets home - that’s more hours on top of the travelling. This is what’s going around my head, how it that 2 hours best spent? Travelling to what is the better school, or spent studying? Travel to the local schools are a fraction of that time. It’s 10 minutes walk to the catholic school and 15/20 minutes walk to the two local schools I’ve finally brought myself to consider.

OP posts:
senua · 26/10/2023 16:04

I can’t see us getting a day place
What does this mean, what is the criteria that you think DC will not achieve? - distance, academics, what?

JustWingItLifeEyelinerEverything · 26/10/2023 15:53

It is a choice between hours spent on the bus to get to the SBS or hours spent with a tutor to cover gaps in local-school learning.

sounds like you are very sure theore distant school guarantees educational success and the local school learning equals for sure gaps. Yes, I know parents who thought in line with that. They sent their kid to a good private school and later on to tutoring as well because kids in private schools don't receive 1:1 attention either.

Original poster
Howdoesthatevenwork · 26/10/2023 15:17

senua · 26/10/2023 09:10

Part of me is starting to think this whole process is a complete nightmare and that just to give up and send DC to the local school and it will be fine.
It is a choice between hours spent on the bus to get to the SBS or hours spent with a tutor to cover gaps in local-school learning. You can't win either way (or, conversely, you are lucky that you can buy the least-worse solution).

Don't forget that it is not totally down to the school. Learning is a three-legged thing. It depends on the pupil, the school and the home support.
We had a talk from DS's Headmaster when DS was starting at school and part of it covered where they would end up, seven years down the line. He said, "I'll make a deal with you. We will try our best but it may be that your DC doesn't totally excel - however, if you agree not to blame the school then I'll agree not to blame your parenting."Grin

This is very good advice. Yes, we are very lucky to be in a position where we are able to worry about this at all. Very true also about how it’s a three legged thing (I like to call it a triangle, but same thing). We are supportive of DC and have the means to help where needed.

We had some conversations today, tough thought provoking ones which put all the cards and feelings on the table. We included DC in these discussions as it is their life which is impacted and we've come to the conclusion that we think we need to think more about boarding and what is involved. I don’t think now is necessarily the right time to apply for boarding if we are going to go down that route. I think we need to take the time between now and march to work through it properly.

The questions have now all changed in my head as to the journey travel time vs tutoring. I can’t see us getting a day place so I can’t work out if it is worth trying for one. I also can’t work out whether the travelling would be detrimental/too much. Someone mentioned the other day they found it wasn’t worth it. I do know there is nothing to loose by trying as there is nothing local we would be missing out on.

The catholic school did offer about 5 places on distance last year and every year has offered a couple of places on distance. It is actually the closest school to our house so I think that is worth a shot.

OP posts:
Original poster
Howdoesthatevenwork · 26/10/2023 15:04

popcornsong · 26/10/2023 09:23

Is there any option to apply for a boarding place at the SBS and then, if that isn't working, to exit the boarding part and remain as a day pupil? I believe this has happened at my local SBS.

This isn’t really an option. It’s either one or the other. If we applied for boarding, then decided we wanted a day place, we would have to apply for a day place using the in year transfer form and follow that process. That would mean being added to the waiting list in the waiting list order, being in the school as a boarder wouldn’t guarantee a day place.
And vice versa if anyone had a day place and wanted to apply for a boarding place, they would go on the boarding waiting list.

OP posts:
senua · 26/10/2023 09:26

popcornsong · 26/10/2023 09:23

Is there any option to apply for a boarding place at the SBS and then, if that isn't working, to exit the boarding part and remain as a day pupil? I believe this has happened at my local SBS.

Really? Most SBS got wise to that ruse years ago and stopped it.

popcornsong · 26/10/2023 09:23

Is there any option to apply for a boarding place at the SBS and then, if that isn't working, to exit the boarding part and remain as a day pupil? I believe this has happened at my local SBS.

senua · 26/10/2023 09:10

Part of me is starting to think this whole process is a complete nightmare and that just to give up and send DC to the local school and it will be fine.
It is a choice between hours spent on the bus to get to the SBS or hours spent with a tutor to cover gaps in local-school learning. You can't win either way (or, conversely, you are lucky that you can buy the least-worse solution).

Don't forget that it is not totally down to the school. Learning is a three-legged thing. It depends on the pupil, the school and the home support.
We had a talk from DS's Headmaster when DS was starting at school and part of it covered where they would end up, seven years down the line. He said, "I'll make a deal with you. We will try our best but it may be that your DC doesn't totally excel - however, if you agree not to blame the school then I'll agree not to blame your parenting."Grin

Original poster
Howdoesthatevenwork · 26/10/2023 08:44

Some of the schools have bullying, disobedience, general messing about, disruption in lessons. I’ve seen the pupils on the streets and busses. Honestly, no way am I sending my child into that environment.

I went ‘back-to-basics’ last night and spent hours going back through websites, policies, notes I had made when we visited schools. So on my list in have the state boarding school, the catholic school we probably won’t get a place at and 2 other local schools. The 2 other local schools I wouldn’t be over the moon with. I would be disappointed if we got one of them. I have seen them and they are probably the best in terms of behaviour, support, lack of classroom disruption and general niceness.

Its hard to assess oxbridge and Uni places because the majority of the schools don’t have a sixth form. I can’t find any evidence of any school here which does have a sixth form sending to oxbridge in the last few years. The local sixth form hasn’t sent anyone to oxbridge, although it has over the last few year started sending to a variety of universities. The college, as far as I am aware, hasn’t. Firstly they don’t offer A levels (I know there are alternative routes, but I would suspect it would be a big thing for the college and they would make a big fuss so it would be all over the papers). The only one which has sent to oxbridge, and sends a couple each year, is the SBS. The catholic school sent one person about 4 years ago. I’m not saying DC is going to end up at oxbridge, but this was in response to something mentioned by a PP further up.

So, to go back to where I was going with this. I have a list of potential 4 schools. I don’t know, at this point;

  1. whether applying for the catholic school would be worth it or it would be a wasted choice. Half of me says don’t bother, the other half says it is worth trying.
  2. to apply for a day place or a boarding place at the SBS. Half of me is saying try our chances at a day place. This has advantages because it removes the boarding element, it is a very good school and DC liked it. But, it would have a very long daily commute and no guarantee of a place. We would be into appeals or applying for boarding in march. This does give us more time to think about whether boarding is the right thing. On the other hand we could apply straight for a boarding place and it’s all dealt with.
Which even one of the local schools we put last doesn’t matter, we would end up with a place, so it’s not a question of whether or not we need to be thinking about not putting a school because of places available. Part of me is starting to think this whole process is a complete nightmare and that just to give up and send DC to the local school and it will be fine.
OP posts:
JustWingItLifeEyelinerEverything · 25/10/2023 19:26

Def local.independent and not a boarding stress for relatively still young kids

senua · 25/10/2023 18:24
  1. In your post of 16:34 you were looking at school-wide figures again. Your DC has half a brain and will have access to tutoring so the generality figures won't apply.
  2. School is more than academics. Is the local school OK-ish apart from results or is there disobedience, bullying etc? Will DC make good friends? If DC goes to the SBS they could end up with their best friend living hours away, which is no fun.
  3. Remember that GCSEs are only a stepping stone; all you have to do is get good-enough results to get to the next stage. You don't need a string of A* or 9s. All you need is strong-enough results in a handful of subjects so you can go on to sixth form (or whatever route is desired).
cestlavielife · 25/10/2023 18:03

Do your local comps still send one or two kids to oxbridge? How do they support those pupils? That is key ( two dds went to local state comp v high achievers, did not get held back at all !)
Is your ds already a high flyer? Is he very narrow in his choices or does he chop and change snd would benefit from broad range subjects and activities?

Original poster
Howdoesthatevenwork · 25/10/2023 17:55

They apply for day places at the SBS and hope for the best then send their kids on very long journeys every day. If they don’t get a place they appeal and then try out weekly boarding. Alternatively they are either genuinely catholic or become catholic to get into the other school I keep mentioning. A couple have tried out the small private school, which I’m not too keen on. A few more have tried boarding further away from home. I’m not too keen on boarding too far away. A hour I think will be fine, 2+ hours or the other side of the country then I draw the line.
The unlucky ones end up in the local schools and do nothing but complain about them and end up hiring tutors.

OP posts:
WarningOfGails · 25/10/2023 16:51

Where do people like you send their kids, if that makes sense?

Original poster
Howdoesthatevenwork · 25/10/2023 16:37

For a little bit of evidence to back up what I’m saying and demonstrate why I’m worried, this is off the government website with the schools headline progress compared. There is one school missing that I couldn’t fit on, it’s at the top (-0.26) and we are not likely to get a place although I will be putting it on my list.

Small local independent or state boarding?
OP posts:
Original poster
Howdoesthatevenwork · 25/10/2023 16:34

They still do the low/middle/high thing.
The schools, IMO, are terrible.

High prior attainment P8 ranges from -2.12 to -0.3.

If I include only the schools we have a chance of a place at, which doesn’t include the only local school I would say was considerable, then high attainment P8 ranges from -2.12 to - 0.7

I’ve used high attainment, but the patterns are the same for middle. The number for low are closer to 0 but still negative. To me that’s saying they are putting a lot more effort into the low prior attainment to get them over the English and Maths line and leaving the top and top of the middle to coast.

The highest 4+ English and maths for the high achievers is 89% and 5+ is 64%.

A8 for the high attainers, only 61.4 at the highest. When we start looking at middle that drops to 53 and low is 39. Again, suggesting that more effort it put into the bottom.

I would like to say DC is in high attainment, but could be at the top of middle attainment. Regardless. It’s boarder line and I feel as if DC will be left to coast.

What I’ve said is a little mixed up and it’s not one school that has all the highest results, it’s just I’ve quoted the highest ones I’ve written down on my own piece of paper here.

OP posts:
notquitesoyoung · 25/10/2023 00:34

@Howdoesthatevenwork the state boarding school our DC attended for 18 months only had provision for 50 boarders in a school of over 1,000 so boarders were very much in the minority. There were very few links between school & boarding. DC attended a private boarding school later but not directly after the state boarding and had a totally different experience. I know of others who have had great experiences at state boarding schools - it was the wrong school for our DC & circumstances. We were taken in by their specialist provision but were basically lied to.

niclw · 24/10/2023 20:07

I haven't read all of the posts above but if would seriously reconsider the local state schools. P8 scores are not everything. Firstly, a P8 score of -0.25 means that on average every child achieved a quarter of a grade below what they were predicted to achieve. -0.5 would have half a grade below predicted. If you live in an area of mixed deprivation levels the chances of having a low p8 score is much higher. Also if a few students didn't turn up to the exams that will make a difference to the score too. 50% of schools will have below 0 got P8. Go and look at the schools and get a feel for them. They might be really strong in areas such as pastoral care and sport that others schools are not. It's worth a look at least.

senua · 24/10/2023 19:34

How bad really are the local schools? I understand that you can look at school-wide / average figures and get worried but your DC isn't an 'average', they are their own person. Even if most pupils get <insert rubbish result here>, as long as some get decent results then you can hope that your DC is one of those. You only need to worry if nobody in the history of the school has ever got an A Grade / gone to University / whatever your achievement goal is.
Do they still do that drilldown analysis by splitting high- / medium- / low-achieving pupils' results? Or has Covid messed that up.

senua · 24/10/2023 18:48

The boarders make up a small proportion of the school. Roughy 10%.
Ouch. I think that that is a 'no' to boarding; that's too much of a minority.
For a co-ed with a PAN of 210 that means approx only 10 other boarders of his/her sex in their year. Imagine if they don't get on.😱

Original poster
Howdoesthatevenwork · 24/10/2023 18:19

This is for 2024 entry.

It is probably too late as this stage to move. Unless people are suggesting if we get a day place then we move?

SBS is co-ed. The boarders make up a small proportion of the school. Roughy 10%.

I feel there have been some very good points raised about time scales and questions we need to iron out before making this decision. We still have a week to have a really good think about it and we will be. DC is aware that this is an option and says they won’t mind boarding but I do take on board the points about it needs to be driven by DC and that it may be sensible to apply for a day place an apply for boarding later after we have had months to think about it rather than weeks.

My concern with this is that we miss out on a place altogether and end up with the rubbish schools. As mentioned, there is only one other that I would even entertain and we have almost no chance of a place. I do take on board the points about going through them and working out the least worst because we do need a 3rd choice for the list.

@All2Well thank you for explaining in greater detail your reasons. It is certainly food for thought.

OP posts:
ThanksItHasPockets · 24/10/2023 18:16

I wouldn’t consider the independent based on your description. I would not consider weekly boarding for my own child but I don’t know yours.

Genuinely, if at all possible I would move house.

senua · 24/10/2023 16:47

Have sent you a private message, OP.

All2Well · 24/10/2023 10:21

My negative experiences were based on the emotional difficulties students often had as a result of boarding and the coldness and inability to adequately care for students' emotional needs that I witnessed in my colleagues who were also houseparents.

Because they were separated from their families, students often couldn't express their emotions in a healthy way and felt forced to grow up quickly and develop a stiff upper lip. However, difficult emotions are a part of life and so students would turn to other ways of releasing their feelings. Self harm was absolutely rife on a scale that I have never witnessed in a day school as were eating disorders, mainly bulimia. Friendships (and romantic relationships) could be much more intense between boarders given how much access they had to each other and we would often identify that these were very toxic and often controlling. For example, certain girls would self harm together or form "diet groups" which were basically like in person pro-ana groups. Sexual relationships started much earlier and at a much more intense level as students were often seeking the emotional support and attachment, which boarding school naturally fractures with parents, in other pre-teens and teenagers who themselves weren't emotionally equipped. Out of all the schools I worked in over a 20 year period, the boarding schools were the most disturbing and it still upsets me to know the emotional struggles students went through in the boarding environment and the lasting impact they will have experienced.

I'm now a University Lecturer and have had a few boarders as my personal tutees, including one who was a state boarder at Dallam and had all the issues with self harm and anorexia when she joined due to feeling abandoned by her mother when she was put into a boarding school. Generally, the boarders have a very easy transition in first year to university life and are very good at supporting the very homesick students, almost taking on a parentifed role. Then at some point in second year once they've bonded with housemates who didn't board and realised how much they missed out on in terms of being with family and having real parental support in their formative years, they often have some sort of mental health crisis. Sometimes returning to self harm or an eating disorder or falling into a very deep depression. They will beg us not to tell parents and will have real shame around their emotions and the impact it's having on their studies (as most of them also have perfectionistic traits and hold themselves to impossible standards). A few struggle to form romantic attachments at all during their three or four years at university as they completely switch off their ability to be vulnerable. One of my students (the state boarder) said to me..."yeah, you don't really enjoy boarding school. You survive it. I was popular and did well academically but it's not right that it's left to a group of 12 year olds to support each other when all you really want is your Mum. Is it any surprise we all ended up with a shit ton of mental health problems and anxiety?"

No doubt people will come along and say they absolutely thrived and ten generations of their families had a wonderful time etc but I can only speak from my own personal experience, which unfortunately has been very negative.

And I'd really beg you to reconsider if the idea to board is not coming from the child themself. No matter what you say or do, they will see that as a rejection of them or abandonment at some point in the future and it's that which tends to have the longest and deepest impact upon them. If it is their idea to board, also make sure you have a solid back up plan in the event that they are unhappy and want to come home.

senua · 24/10/2023 08:48

More information on the SBS would help. Is it single-sex or co-ed; which would your child prefer? More importantly, what is the ratio of boarders to day pupils; if you are a day pupil in a school that is predominantly boarding then you can feel an outsider.

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