GCSE "compulsory" subject. DS doesn't want to do it.

Many people here seems to be quite down with GCSE computing.

Yes. I have no idea why. My ds is doing GCSE computing and wants to do it for A Level alongside physics, maths and further maths. He's considering applying to Oxbridge and thinking of a career in cyber-security.

Fight it. I fought a similar rule for Dd that every kid had to do a language unless they were deemed to be struggling overall academically. Dd is dyslexic and was struggling with a language (German) .

School went as far as lying to us about timetable clashes so she did actually start it in year 10. But then she found someone doing art and product design which she had been told wasn’t possible and I pointed this out to the school. Said she was dropping German regardless and she’d either just do 9 GCSEs or they could let her do Art instead of German. They found her a space in the Art class.

it annoys be that schools seem some subjects more worthy than others. Dd ended up doing an architecture degree so the art gcse was far more invaluable (and the product design). She already knew she wanted to be an architect.

@ErrolTheDragon It's true that language GCSEs don't actually teach children anything they might need to use in real life.

I remember my aunt put it beautifully when she said you learn French at school and they give you a French pen pal and you write them a letter saying, "Hello Pierre, how are you? My name is Sarah and I am 13 years old. I live in a city called Birmingham. I have a brother and a sister. I have a cat. In my pencil case I have a pencil, a pen, a rubber and a ruler. My favourite colour is red."

I mean, bloody hell, I moved to France and started working in an office and I've never needed to ask anyone for a pencil or a rubber but I did need to know words like "printer" and "stapler", which the 2002 GCSE syllabus apparently deemed irrelevant.

They teach you how to ask for directions to the station, or, even more irrelevant, the tourist information office, when everyone just types it into Google maps these days. But try to order anything more complicated than a burger in a restaurant which doesn't have its entire menu conveniently translated into English and you are still going to be sitting there typing words like "merlu" and "pintade" into Google translate.

As for computer science, I never studied it myself but I remember that when I did my A-levels I decided to take law, and then I heard that universities didn't consider it a "proper" subject, when as far as I was concerned it was a lot more useful than the other "proper" subjects I was doing. Hopefully they are more enlightened these days, especially in fields such as computer science.

I'm fairly sure those people are out of date and thinking of the pre-reform syllabuses.
But in any case, my dd did both the gcse and then AS back then, and they were definitely useful to her, giving her a grounding before she started her STEM degree. Her peers who hadn't done any CS had a steeper learning curve on the uni courses, on a degree which was plenty hard enough without starting on the back foot.

In some ways, doing the gcse may be of more value to students who will need computing as a means to an end, vs those likely to study it at a higher level and very probably code as a hobby. (Not that amateur coding is comparable to comp sci!)
(The gcse german otoh - her school did make everyone take a language - was nothing but stress and distraction. Maybe language GCSEs have also improved post-reform, IDK, but they weren't at all good then.)

It's off topic for the OP but I was intrigued by this comment, so I looked up a few universities. Four of the 6 I checked specifically mentioned CS positively in their entry requirements, eg by requiring either Maths or CS, or by giving a lower standard offer to those with CS. Newcastle seem to be doing it qualitatively: "We are committed to encouraging the adoption of A level Computing. Students applying with an A level in Computing will receive favourable consideration."

No mention of Physics by any of them, funnily enough.

This was just a small, unscientific sample but is perhaps a reminder for people to do their own research.

And again, this isn't an argument about whether French is better than Computing.

Except that for some reason the school seem to think it is more important.

I did the equivalent of GCSE computing in the 80s and I love it. I remember doing binary numbers, logic and sort algorithms.

Many people here seems to be quite down with GCSE computing. I'd like my DC1 to pick computing GCSE. She wants to do physics at university and I think computing skills are essential in all STEM sciences. There is so much data analsis nowadayas, and a basic understanding of data models and algorithms are great knowledge to have. She hasn't shown any interest in picking computing however.

On the other hand, her school also mandates a MFL at GCSE. I'm not going to fight it. I think it's a great thing they learn a foreign language too.

I'm here to point out that computing GCSE isn't useless. I've looked some past papers and I think they are learning good stuff in it.

Honestly I think it's only likely to be of much use if you plan to take it further.

I doubt most employers are going to care either way if you have done GCSE French or not.

Moving away from the original thread the point is that not studying a language past age 14 is limiting. I’m also fluent in French, not from the lamentable school lessons and identify with that sense of being at sea in languages I don’t know. But I can have a shot, have a good ear for patterns in languages. As pp have said GCSE computing isn’t needed for A Level or higher computing qualifications or a career in coding so why not study something he’s good at and shows a more rounded education.

Fluent French speaker here.

Not really.

Very few people actually retain anything from their language GCSEs if that's as far as they take the subject.

I even know people who studied French at university level including a year abroad who really aren't that good.

I did German GCSE and I enjoyed it and was good at it (I got an A*). But I haven't used it since and if I went to Germany today I'd struggle to say more than hello, please and thank you. I could ask where the station is but I wouldn't necessarily understand the response and I'd probably just use Google Maps anyway.

I'm hugely pro learning foreign languages but a GCSE on its own isn't going to be of much use, especially if the child isn't interested in the subject and doesn't want to do it.

Hi OP, This is an interesting thread and I am sorry your DS has this predicament.

I would suggest focusing the argument on a) DS is an able and conscientious student who is good at most subjects (and so worthy of being given some flex to help achieving his specific aims and goals) and b) that taking French GCSE may well preclude him being able to take CS and DT GCSEs, both of which would provide excellent foundations for his aspirations in relation to CS, engineering or a combination of the two.

Emphasise that you understand that the policy of compulsory French GCSE for the top set is, in part, to assist able students maintain a breadth of GCSE subjects and that this is particularly helpful for those students without a clear view of their future route. However, you are asking for an exception to be made to facilitate your DS in his credible, worthy and already well-thought through career ambitions.

Do not say that you do not want your DS to have to take a subject they are not interested in; that will be a red rag to a bull. Essentially you need to marshall arguments that make it easier for the school to make an exception, as there will be a reluctance to go down that route as it means dealing with others saying 'well, Sugar's DS got to drop French'.

Obviously if they still say no (and there is a high chance they might), then - and only then - you could consider going down the route of attacking the policy. Again, this should focus on the fact that the interests of the student are not necessarily sensibly accommodated if the school's policy (which is not flagged on admission) is rigidly enforced.

Most computer science university courses will prefer a student with an A in physics over one with an A in Computer Science BECAUSE the A Level / GCSE is so useless.

Is that really still the case? I thought that CS/computing wasn't particularly well regarded in the past but had been much improved since the last set of reforms. Not sure there would be much in entrance requirements for good CS courses to support your assertion.

I think everyone should study one MFL to GSCE. If your DS would be more likely to enjoy and especially use German beyond school, then you should argue for that.

My sister was put down for a language that would have been of little use to her, and my parents successfully argued for one that was the mother tongue of one of my grandparents and where an aunt lived at the time.

See above. It's not because OP has said "French is not a compulsory subject. It was not in the prospectus as being a compulsory subject."

In her post on 8/10 at 19.20, OP says "French is not a compulsory subject. It was not in the prospectus as being a compulsory subject."

Which is why I asked her to clarify what she meant by compulsory.

It depends on what you're calling "EBacc" here - for the English Baccalaureate it can't replace a language. But for Progress 8 and Attainment 8, it can fill a space in the 'Ebacc Bucket'.

Most computer science university courses will prefer a student with an A in physics over one with an A in Computer Science BECAUSE the A Level / GCSE is so useless. Professional courses, even free ones, give you more respect.

Computer science is an EBacc qualifying subject within the Science domain if a school offers single sciences. So you could count computer science instead of say, Biology, but you can't use it to replace a MFL (or English or History/Geography come to that.)

Computer science is definitely not a soft subject. It is extremely challenging and one of the most difficult to pass. It's on a par with physics

Computer science is also an ebac subject. This can be used in your arguement for him to drop french as it definitely for their ebac results

the school thinks that parents here won't really question or argue when it comes to this sort of thing. They seem to think that what they say is final,

What they say is final. You can question it, but they don't have to do what you want.

But surely that's not the school's decision to take?

Yes it is. Schools can choose to make subjects compulsory which are not nationally compulsory.