Se London private from state primary

Eboblah · 2023-10-02T11:05:29+00:00

My ds is in y6 in a lovely but non-academically rigorous state primary. We’ve recently become lucky enough to be able to consider private school but I’m a bit concerned that we might put him through the process and end up with nothing. I had thought, clearly naively, that being able to afford it was the main issue. He’s bright but not extraordinarily so, and it seems all the schools in reasonable commuting distance have very high academic standards and/or are massively oversubscribed. He has lots of interests but not any that would get him a scholarship. On atom he’s doing ok, but his written work is quite poor (we have now got him an English tutor but there are limits to what can be done in the timescale), I think he’d do ok in interview as he’s very engaged, interested in everything and a generally nice kid (imho), but not sure how much any of that would count. We’re looking at Alleyns, St Dunstan’s, Emanuel and Royal Russell. So 2 questions really - are there any other nearby coed schools that I might have missed? Are any allowances made for coming from a state primary? And I know impossible to answer but what are his chances before I put him through all this?!

Annu21 · 19/02/2024 11:41

Thanks @Eboblah we didn't consider Royal Russell as it's quite far but will check out and inquire about occasional place. Thank you!

Original poster

Eboblah · 18/02/2024 21:33

Hi @Annu21 , I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get the schools you wanted, it's such an ordeal. We ended up applying for 4 and got 1 offer from Royal Russell. It's the least academically selective of the 4 but it was his favourite and I think a less hot-house environment will likely suit him more. I think like you we had underestimated just how competitive and how high the standard that we were aiming for was. In retrospect I think to do it from a state school with a non 'brilliant' child it can be done but preparation needs to probably start early in year 5 with regular tutoring. And that's a lot of time and effort to put in for what will still be an uncertain result. We had an English tutor every couple of weeks for about 4 months and saw a big improvement, albeit from quite a low base, but I suspect this was still the biggest, although probably not only, reason he didn't get to the interview stage with the other 3. What are you planning to do now? Do you have any decent state options?

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Annu21 · 18/02/2024 11:01

@Eboblah opening up this discussion to see where you ended up with your DS, if happy to share. We are in SE London and unfortunately our DS didn't get into the two privates we applied (Alleyns and Colfe's; bright DS but disruptive state primary and we sadly didn't realise how competitive it was, although did tutoring maybe not enough) and are wondering what other options might be out there. Thanks 🙏🏽

PuggyInTheMuddle · 05/10/2023 22:17

Brugmansia · 05/10/2023 09:32

From what I can see though Graveney is a bit of an oddity. There isn't a separate test. It's just done on the general banding test for Wandsworth as a whole and that is just verbal reasoning and non-verbal reasoning. There's no maths or english test, so a child who is really good on VR and NVR but not such an all-rounder could do really well. Also a lot of the children taking the banding test won't be applying for Graveney anyway. So overall I don't think it's really possible to compare how competitive it is with private schools that have their own more lengthy admissions process.

Edited

Children in Wandsworth schools sit the Wandsworth test in school, as a banding test . Meanwhile huge numbers of other kids from outside Wandsworth and miles around… from as far away as Hounslow according to previous MN threads … also sit the test with the hope of one of the 70 selective places.

See the 11+ forums.

Yes, the test is purely VR and NVR, theoretically testing intelligence and ability rather than education. It is sat by every primary school child in Wandsworth, whether or not they have been tutored, been to a private school etc AND by huge numbers of kids who are applying to the top selective private schools and the other super selective grammars (Tiffin / Sutton grammars etc) . It is very common for children to get a place in a selective private having not got a selective place at Graveney.

Brugmansia · 05/10/2023 09:32

From what I can see though Graveney is a bit of an oddity. There isn't a separate test. It's just done on the general banding test for Wandsworth as a whole and that is just verbal reasoning and non-verbal reasoning. There's no maths or english test, so a child who is really good on VR and NVR but not such an all-rounder could do really well. Also a lot of the children taking the banding test won't be applying for Graveney anyway. So overall I don't think it's really possible to compare how competitive it is with private schools that have their own more lengthy admissions process.

PuggyInTheMuddle · 05/10/2023 09:21

I would think Graveney is less competitive than Alleyn's or Emanuel in terms of the test,

Nope. Academically the super selective places have a higher academic threshold.

AnotherNewt · 05/10/2023 08:48

Dallasdays · 04/10/2023 13:58

Graveney selective steam much harder to get into than the likes of Emanuel...

Emanuel has shot up in popularity in recent years, and the standard required is significantly higher than it was (pass mark for siblings and co-curricular scholars higher and no resits, all others by highest score).

They doubled the size of the 10+ intake a few years ago, which is where mist state school joiners start, but still have plenty at 11+ (slightly more places now they've abolished 13+ as an entry point).

Graveney has 70 selective places, and a totally different style of exam.

Can you reach Clapham Junction or other stations so you could consider schools which are a bit further out?

Brugmansia · 05/10/2023 08:42

Hommegirl · 05/10/2023 01:30

Can anyone shed some light on St. Paul’s Barnes please? We are one salary family, thinking of St. Paul’s for year 7 but not sure how the social dynamics of the school really are? People share horror stories of children comparing gadgets, holidays, birthday parties etc. Can anyone shed some light on the actual pic please?

There are a couple of threads already about 11+/grammar/private in SW London. It's probably best to ask on those as there will be people applying for St Pauls this year so know more about the school.

Hommegirl · 05/10/2023 01:30

Can anyone shed some light on St. Paul’s Barnes please? We are one salary family, thinking of St. Paul’s for year 7 but not sure how the social dynamics of the school really are? People share horror stories of children comparing gadgets, holidays, birthday parties etc. Can anyone shed some light on the actual pic please?

Dallasdays · 04/10/2023 13:58

Graveney selective steam much harder to get into than the likes of Emanuel...

Original poster

Eboblah · 04/10/2023 12:49

I'd imagine the Graveney selective places might be more competitive than the privates as there's no money element acting as a filter on the number of children taking the test. And from my reading of their website it's only the top 70 who take the Wandsworth test that get the places, and if they don't take it up then the places go on distance instead - but please someone tell me if I've read that wrong. He took the test but mainly because Chestnut Grove might be an option.

I know people who have moved to get into Charter but not sure we could get a purchase sorted in less than 4 weeks. I really like where we live anyway, but now I'm so caught up in the madness of this process I'm kicking myself I might have missed a trick.

If Kingsdale wasn't a lottery this would be a lot less stressful.

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Brugmansia · 04/10/2023 12:26

I agree, it is not the case there are no good comprehensives. There are a lot of different options with state secondary schools in S London as a whole. Some like the ones you mentioned are really good and are seen as very desirable. Others though may not have the same reputations but are still perfectly decent. There are also a number where there are allocated places for particular aptitudes, e.g Chestnut Grove, so places are available if you live further away. The whole system is just far too complicated really.

I know people in the past who have temporarily moved to get into Charter. They were in the process of looking to buy a house but not finding one, so rented near by for a year or so at the point their eldest was in Y6, then moved further out later. It's not a practical option for most people though, certainly we wouldn't want to uproot now as we're settled where we are.

In terms of journeys, again it just depends where you are. Both Graveney and Royal Russell would be quite long and complicated journeys for us, but from other areas may be more sensible.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 04/10/2023 12:14

Brugmansia · 04/10/2023 12:09

Those schools aren't realistic options for the majority of children in S London. The Charter schools have tiny catchment areas. I think Dunraven is similar. Kingsdale is a lottery, so everyone has a chance but it is also massively over subscribed. Graveney is also quite a small catchment I think unless you manage to get one of the selective places by doing the Wandsworth test, but that is very competitive.

They're also not necessarily convenient to get to from a lot of places as transport around S London is not always straight forward. We've ruled out Graveney on that basis as the journey is too much of a faff.

There are other good schools around of course. It's just that where you live may mean that the chances of getting into a good one may be really slim. Adding in a couple of private options may add some choice when we have to make a final decision in March.

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True - but they are examples of good comprehensives in the area (I got the impression the PP was hinting that there were none).

I would think Graveney is less competitive than Alleyn's or Emanuel in terms of the test, and no less of a faff journey wise than Royal Russell would be?

With Charter, I might be weighing up whether I'd be better spending my cash on a house in catchment (aka appreciating asset) than private school fees (with risk of added VAT coming in) especially if I had multiple children.

Brugmansia · 04/10/2023 12:09

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 03/10/2023 22:53

Charter North, Charter East, Kingsdale, Graveney, Dunraven...

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Those schools aren't realistic options for the majority of children in S London. The Charter schools have tiny catchment areas. I think Dunraven is similar. Kingsdale is a lottery, so everyone has a chance but it is also massively over subscribed. Graveney is also quite a small catchment I think unless you manage to get one of the selective places by doing the Wandsworth test, but that is very competitive.

They're also not necessarily convenient to get to from a lot of places as transport around S London is not always straight forward. We've ruled out Graveney on that basis as the journey is too much of a faff.

There are other good schools around of course. It's just that where you live may mean that the chances of getting into a good one may be really slim. Adding in a couple of private options may add some choice when we have to make a final decision in March.

Drfosters · 04/10/2023 10:42

I was In Your shoes quite a few years ago when we decided quite late that was the route we were going to take. But at this stage you are cramming to get them through. My Eldest was doing a past paper at night and weekends until Xmas plus an hour before school.. I also did vocabulary tests with them to and from school. This might sound extreme but their school wasn’t planning on doing any year 6 syllabus until the start of jan which was after the 11 plays exams. Was immensely stressful and when it came to next child we did it all gradually over the 2 years beforehand without any stress. You live and learn. We got there in the end but the competition is fierce. That is even before you get to the interviews which was almost an even bigger stress. But it can be done. We did do a lot of chat with them that they may not get any places and it isn’t a reflection on them.

once at the secondary school I found that the state school primary children were actually slightly ahead of their private primary friends simply because of the amount of 11 plus prep the state primary children had to do. The children who simply came up from the junior school without an exam had to do a lot of catching up.

the system is completely silly tbh. No one would devise a system like this from scratch. By the end of year 7 everything had righted itself.

PreplexJ · 04/10/2023 10:13

Eboblah · 04/10/2023 10:08

@PreplexJ thanks, unfortunately Colfes and Eltham college are a bit awkward for us to get to. I’m interested by your comment that private secondary’s love to have kids from state primary - why?! I’d have thought they’d be harder work as less used to the private system behaviourally and also academically behind? What’s the advantage for them?

Dont think students will be lag behind academically once they pass the entrance standard and got in. The private schools love to have more state educated kids because it is good for their own PR in general.

For the entrance exam they might be a bit disadvantage to some prep school (not all private) kids due to not enough dedicated preparation but for the list of the schools you have in mind I won't worry about too much if your kid already good in state and do sufficient prep work.

Original poster

Eboblah · 04/10/2023 10:08

@PreplexJ thanks, unfortunately Colfes and Eltham college are a bit awkward for us to get to. I’m interested by your comment that private secondary’s love to have kids from state primary - why?! I’d have thought they’d be harder work as less used to the private system behaviourally and also academically behind? What’s the advantage for them?

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OhCrumbsWhereNow · 03/10/2023 22:53

CancertheCrab · 03/10/2023 22:49

Can you give an example of a good comprehensive in South East London?

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Charter North, Charter East, Kingsdale, Graveney, Dunraven...

CancertheCrab · 03/10/2023 22:49

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 02/10/2023 14:29

There are a lot of very good comprehensives in South London.

I would look very carefully at those and the private schools - there are a couple on your list that probably aren't worth the expense. And places like Alleyns and Emanuel are very competitive.

If DS is already in Y6 you've left it very late to do the kind of prep you'd need from a non-academic state primary.

Can you give an example of a good comprehensive in South East London?

PreplexJ · 03/10/2023 22:47

"2 questions really - are there any other nearby coed schools that I might have missed? Are any allowances made for coming from a state primary?"

Etham college and Colfe’s ? Depends on where you are in SE London.

I think in your list, apart from 2 schools that is potentially a bit competitive (but nothing like the ones in the North/West London)" For the rest, if you prep regularly from now and if your child already in the top set in the state primary you should have a good chance.

And yes most of the secondary private love to have kids from state primary schools.

Good luck.

BonjourCrisette · 03/10/2023 22:20

About maybe not getting in, we did tell DD repeatedly in the lead up that if she didn't get either of the schools she was interested in it was absolutely no reflection on her because the selection process is both hard and also contains some element of randomness. I think it did help a bit to try and make it a low stakes process and just enjoy it for what it was. She did not expect anything really, maybe because I'd gone a bit hard on how difficult it was, so was really delighted when she got into the schools she liked.

Original poster

Eboblah · 03/10/2023 21:42

Thanks for all the comments.

@strawberryband Good point about the number of applications being misleading, and dividing by 4 or 5 makes it seem a lot less daunting. And good advice about the interview prep, will sound out some friends.

@ghislaine Boys schools are not for him but Dulwich Prep expanding should hopefully reduce some of the competition.

@BonjourCrisette that's good advice re the exam practice. Currently he's mainly doing the learning journey's on Atom but should move on to mocks soon. I think time management could be quite a major issue as he's so easily distracted but hopefully in the real things it will be better. I can't imagine I'll ever be able to get him to convince him to check his answers though, I'll fight that battle when I've won the current 'debate' about using a paper and pen for workings.

@Brugmansia it's so hard getting the balance between encouraging them to do enough work to stand a decent chance but then not wanting to stress them out about it, while also knowing they could work really hard and still not get a place and then feeling like they've failed despite the effort. I have promised a decent summer holiday if he doesn't get in (this year we camped in Wales so it's a low bar) so there is some upside. The visits did motivate him but it's such a double-edged sword as the more motivated he is the harder it will be if he doesn't get in. Good luck with it all!

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Brugmansia · 03/10/2023 13:37

We're in a really similar situation Eboblah.
Our DS is also in state primary and I think only one other child in his year is also considering private. He's bright but dyslexic so struggles with written work and while pretty solid academically he's definitely not at the top of his class.
We're looking at very similar schools to you - not Royal Russell as it is too far for us. He's been having tutoring, but for various reasons it was slightly sporadic at times last year, so he's probably still not where he needs to be.
We've been pushing him more this term but I'm currently feeling quite doubtful about whether he will get in to any of those we like the look of. What has helped is taking him to see some of the schools as he now really likes some of them so that has helped him focus more on the work he needs to do.

I'm also trying to look at the situation more broadly. There are other good state options around us, though none of them a certainty for him to get into. I'm not desperate for him to go private, but just considering it to give a possible wider range of options. From what I have seen I think some could suit him really well, we really liked St Dunstans. If he does not get into any private option I think the extra prep we are doing will have been beneficial anyway, as he will have had that extra support on areas he is weaker such as comprehension. He'll also have got used to doing more homework ready for when he goes into Y7, wherever that ends up being.

trader21c · 02/10/2023 23:15

You have every chance - remember these private schools are businesses and need bums on seats - they’re well aware that kids from other private schools will have been well prepared. And we’re in a cost of living crisis … Often the schools have samples of their entrance tests on their websites

moonbeamsokay · 02/10/2023 22:51

I always hear good things about Colfe's.

Everyone I know with kids at St Dunstan's are happy, but I know people with bright DCs who didn't get in at 11+ this year, and yet I have it on good authority that they had spaces in Y7 this September... so I have no idea what their game is.