Average class percentage

Is anyone ok knowing they are bottom of the bottom set?

Are you suggesting that they are too stupid to figure out that they're not very good at maths on their own?

As I said, I don't tell anyone that they're the bottom of the bottom set.

But as for bottom sets in general, they're not daft, they can look around at the other kids in the room and figure out it's not top set. You can call them the 'Circle set' instead of 'Set Z' but they'll work it out.

Managing the fact that they're bottom set is more important than trying to patronisingly hide it from them.

Please pay attention @TizerorFizz they are NOT ranked. It’s a helpful perspective. You and others intimated that it’s only helpful to high achievers which is far from the truth. It’s incredibly helpful to the bottom of the bottom too. I think you’re just looking to antagonise.

They’re not ranked ffs!!

I don’t understand your problem @TizerorFizz do you even have a kid at school anymore?

@NotDonna Is anyone ok knowing they are bottom of the bottom set? Someone is! Or bottom 5? A grade 1 or 2 is still that however much you know it’s coming and the perspective afforded by carefully chosen stats doesn’t help eventually. Does it sweeten the pill? I’m just not sure. But if you are happy, that’s fine.

@CurlewKate you are totally missing the point but you boast away! And maybe for those higher up it is less useful @TizerorFizz BUT for those of us with kids in the low sets (or bottom in my DD3’s case) it IS INCREDIBLY helpful! It absolutely does put their score into perspective.

If you don't give a class an idea of how others did, they'll ask each other (which can be disastrous for the "average" kid whose friends are high-fliers).

Like noble giraffe, I would tell them the top mark (because the high-fliers often do want to know if they were top, and that way they would know without having to share marks), and the median. I also often said "there weren't many below...". We reviewed setting regularly, so it was helpful for pupils to know if they were approaching the relegation zone, so a set move didn't come out of the blue - and in some cases it did result in them putting in more serious effort. It also reassured those who were below the median but not below that mark. I chose what value to give for that one carefully.

You can’t really tell in advance. That’s why grade boundaries are set after the kids sit the exam.

Class average is a good benchmark for setted groups.

Plenty of kids think that they actually did badly without that benchmark because the natural tendency is to compare yourself to those who did best.

I told you upthread.

@noblegiraffe Who says hide grades? Just don’t compare against other dc. If he gets a grade 1 or 2, where will that take him? Doing it again presumably. By all means be truthful to the DC and parents/careers but DC will know they are not Turing. So by all means advise but what use is you got 30% and the average was 50%? Or whatever phrasing.

Girls schools seem to do more and not the coed or single sex boys schools. It doesn’t mean being bottom set you not going to get 7/8/9s. Also, in early secondary schools years lots of pupils from lots of schools and teachers so it involves finding and building up those whose Maths teaching is not great. Doesn’t mean DC is not intelligent or not good in Maths if subjects not covered or taught at an in-depth level.

I think the difference there, Tizer, is that I don’t see the kids headed for the lower grades as failures.

A kid asked me about gcse predicted grades today and we looked at his grades, that you would probably consider fails, then discussed a carpentry course on the local college website that his grades would qualify him for. He’s now going to go away and look into it some more.

Or I could hide all that from him and let it be a big surprise 🤷‍♀️

Yup @noblegiraffe Nothing like preparing for failure. It’s a big help in life.

At my daughter's girls' grammar school they don't share any of these data for any subjects.

End-of-topic maths tests aren't even returned with an overall mark/percentage.
The purpose of reviewing the paper is simply to understand where you went wrong on any individual questions.

Comparison with other students is actively discouraged.

I assume the main reason for this approach is to protect the mental health of high achieving, perfectionist girls.

I'm interested to know whether DD's school is unusual in this approach, and whether it will change as she goes up the school. There is also no setting (so far - Y8.)

They’re going to be measured and graded in relation to their peers at the end of Y11. They need to know where they stand well before that.

And providing context for in class assessments is helpful. If it’s a difficult test and the average mark is low, it is useful for the class to know that and judge their own score accordingly.

I was always desperate to know where my children were in relation to their peers-but I was aware that it was sheer curiosity and (private) boasting rights! It really doesn't matter and is completely unhelpful.

Marks are personal but without context they are useless. Hence providing the class of the context of class average and top mark (but not bottom mark because that’s not fair on the person who got the bottom mark to find out in public).

Of course not tell them in front of the whole class. I tend to think marks are personal. Who really needs a class position?

Yes, they have an idea of where they are in the pecking order, they are not stupid. But that isn’t a reason to tell them in front of the class that they got the lowest mark on a test.

So you actually think Dc don’t know who might be bottom? I bet they do. It usually becomes obvious with class work and answering questions.

At primary as a maths governor, I sat in a small class that was our group not likely to get 100 in sats. It was a great lesson but it was plainly obvious who was really struggling. I’ve no doubt Dc did too. Marks are only part of the story.

That's why I wouldn't tell them what the bottom mark is.

This exactly. People only think it is a greta idea when their child is at the top, or at the bottom through laziness and needing a push.

I don’t see how being repeatedly told you are bottom of the bottom set does anything for self esteem or learning. It reinforces you are not very good. Dc tend to know where they sit within a group but reinforcing Dc is bottom doesn’t sound great to me.

@Thingsthatgo DD3 is bottom set and this is STILL useful data! She obviously gets low percentages & therefore likely to think badly of herself. Whereas if that’s put in perspective of the class or even the year group it helps. They seem to think EVERYONE else gets 100%!