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Original poster

4 a-levels and an EPQ?

69 replies

imip · 26/08/2023 12:26

Would schools even let this happen? Dd is autistic and v rigid about doing this. I think the 4 a-levels is ok or 3 a-levels and and EPQ, but she is determined! Would a sixth form allow this?

For reference she has had a lot of mental health crises, including SH, anorexia and suicide attempt. Has been an inpatient. Missed most of y10 completing her GCSEs in one year this year and is now moving to a different sixth form. She has seven 9s, two 8s and one 6. In y10 they allowed her to study from home and she sat one GCSE early and got a 9.

I really would have thought that no school would allow this. Does anyone have experience that it has been allowed?

OP posts:
Neolara · 27/08/2023 18:59

My DD did this. Her fourth was further maths. Her college expects everyone to do an epq. However, the college also actively discourages kids to do 4 a levels unless they really need it for uni. My DD has gone on to do maths so the FM was necessary for her. I think my DD is very bright (academic prizes all though secondary) and pretty organised and even she found 4 a levels plus epq a lot. I think most of her uni offers were reduced due to her eqp.

Original poster
imip · 27/08/2023 18:50

Sorry I didn’t, but yes she is - I have addressed it - she is not my only autistic child.

OP posts:
Original poster
imip · 27/08/2023 18:48

Oblomov23 · 27/08/2023 18:43

The truth is many (not all) Oxbridge, Durham, Imperial etc only care if you get 3x A * . You want dd to get 3 x A star.

Why on earth do you do more. When many (not all) don't care. Great if you want to do 4. Great if you want to do EPQ.

But seriously, for most, it's just not required.

And your dd is clearly ASD, or rigid. So you need to address this sooner rather than later.

She is autistic - mentioned that in my opening post

OP posts:
Original poster
imip · 27/08/2023 18:48

I am talking to her, I am sowing the seed, I am doing all this! She also is refusing to speak to me when I discuss it, getting cross at me if I mention it and it is putting her in a low mood. I did this with FM this year and she did eventually drop it. I have told her she is able to drop one, so she doesn’t need to be ashamed/embarrassed if she does drop it.

in fact, what I need to do is support her and show that I am supporting her while giving her the option to drop it. Not how I want it to happen. But this is precisely what rigidity is!

OP posts:
Oblomov23 · 27/08/2023 18:43

The truth is many (not all) Oxbridge, Durham, Imperial etc only care if you get 3x A * . You want dd to get 3 x A star.

Why on earth do you do more. When many (not all) don't care. Great if you want to do 4. Great if you want to do EPQ.

But seriously, for most, it's just not required.

And your dd is clearly ASD, or rigid. So you need to address this sooner rather than later.

Oblomov23 · 27/08/2023 18:38

I'm seriously struggling to understand your attitude. Because she's so rigid, talking to her now, gently, suggesting, sowing the seed, encouraging, pleading for her to consider...., seems so much more sensible than just being resigned to series MH issues, and giving up your job. I'm struggling ti understand why you are only reactive, not preventative.

titchy · 27/08/2023 18:31

I think dropping Art and doing the EPQ (if she's creative she could produce an artefact which might appeal rather than an essay?) would be far less stressful than doing four including Art and not doing the EPQ. The workload would be far less and maybe manageable.

OvertakenByLego · 27/08/2023 18:27

It sounds like the EHCP isn’t good enough. It should be based on what DD reasonably requires, not on what the school can deliver. Therapeutic provision in F can be far in excess of what is otherwise typically available via CAMHS, even if CAMHS deliver part of the provision. If the SEP can’t be delivered in school it can be via a PB.

Original poster
imip · 27/08/2023 18:27

I am really grateful for all your comments - it’s helping me get to a position where I comfortable with formulating a good plan and also being able to work with her new school with more information about the subject.

OP posts:
Original poster
imip · 27/08/2023 18:24

OvertakenByLego · 27/08/2023 17:52

In that case therapies, including MH therapies, can be well covered by the EHCP, you don’t need to rely on CAMHS for them any more.

School (quite rightly) felt they were unable to provide the right level of MH support and the offer is based on her continuing with CAMHS.

in reality, I would rather her do a levels part time over three years. I did manage to keep her off for almost a year and she condensed her GCSEs into one year getting very strong marks. But she isn’t in the best frame of mind at all. She is not also happy she missed that year of school.

I would prefer her to do a fourth a level than an EPQ because she is not so good at making decisions and I think the EPQ will be stressful. And I would prefer her not to do art. But she needs agency - I can only guide her. Dd is clever and a good masker - strong results and everyone things she is capable and ‘better’. I have been through the mill with social workers and I also need to ensure that I am not telling her what to do (the last few years have really been horrible).

OP posts:
titchy · 27/08/2023 18:06

Workload is generally 5-6 hours taught per subject, plus the same in self directed learning. So for four subjects that would be 44 hours a week. Plus another 5 hours a week for the EPQ. Is 50 hours a week (in reality with Art it'll be much more) something your dd can cope with given the severity of her MH?

waltzwithme · 27/08/2023 18:00

imip · 27/08/2023 17:35

This is what I don’t understand. If universities don’t value it, why do schools allow it and obv in some. Axes make it compulsory?

is it just a vanity project?

Firstly, 66.6% of students take 3 A levels and only 4.6% take 4. Of those that take 4 around half take further maths. Universities like to see breadth hence the 3 A levels but some top universities like further maths for subjects like maths, physics and computer science.

The vast majority of state schools offer 3 A levels, further maths comes under different funding I believe. Mine did 4 A levels including further maths but no EPQ as college felt like it could be too much so it was a blanket no if they were doing 4. Ds completed all his work set by college in his free periods which was around 5 hours a week. But that wasn't the norm. He did get 4 A stars and excelled at maths/fm.

Timetable wise there is room to do 5 A levels and the only student who did that is now studying at MIT in the US. It isn't about how much contact time they have in college but also the homework workload. I would ask college how much they expect time wise to be spent outside of college as a guide.

titchy · 27/08/2023 17:56

Picking four, then dropping one at the end of year 12, was very common when A level grades were based on the AS grade at the end of year 12 and the A2 grade at the end of year 13, and starting with four is still offered - but almost always the requirement is to drop one to focus on three to get the best grades.

titchy · 27/08/2023 17:54

imip · 27/08/2023 17:35

This is what I don’t understand. If universities don’t value it, why do schools allow it and obv in some. Axes make it compulsory?

is it just a vanity project?

It's only where two of the four are Maths and Further Maths where schools are generally very happy, and that's because if you want to do a Maths degree you need FM. But starting with three that includes maths and FM is too limiting.

Some schools (and parents lets be honest) though do like the bragging rights of showing their average A level tariff score is higher than other schools (often private). But it will almost certainly be at the expense of what's best for the kids.

OvertakenByLego · 27/08/2023 17:52

In that case therapies, including MH therapies, can be well covered by the EHCP, you don’t need to rely on CAMHS for them any more.

Original poster
imip · 27/08/2023 17:43

She does, it has just been finalised. Luckily EHCPs are my day job, but even then it has been very difficult.

OP posts:
OvertakenByLego · 27/08/2023 17:41

Separate to the A levels/EPQ issue, does DD not have an EHCP? From your posts I would hope she does. EHCPs can include therapies DC wouldn’t otherwise receive, at a greater frequency and without the need to sit on the normal waiting lists.

Original poster
imip · 27/08/2023 17:35

This is what I don’t understand. If universities don’t value it, why do schools allow it and obv in some. Axes make it compulsory?

is it just a vanity project?

OP posts:
titchy · 27/08/2023 14:01

You asked whether universities looked favourably on quantity - no they absolutely do not. Maths and further maths are the exception, but any other combination of four is not going to get her extra brownie points from a uni. Given her MH issues I would suggest doing four, one of which is Art, will destroy her.

The English system is predicated towards starting to specialise post 16, whereas for most other countries it's 18 where they specialise.

Tulipvase · 27/08/2023 12:47

My daughter is doing 3 A levels, as AS in Maths ( But over 2 years, can’t think of the proper name) and an EPQ. She is thinking of not doing the EPQ as it’s not in her favoured subject.

Schools seem to vary a lot. She also did 11 GCSES, the only way you don’t at her school is if they allow you to do double science but that’s not often. I’ve seen quite a lot of schools doing less.

rogueone · 27/08/2023 12:43

My DS will be doing 4 A levels and the EPQ. His school expect all DC to do it

Original poster
imip · 27/08/2023 10:40

Oblomov23 · 27/08/2023 08:52

I'm surprised OP is so passive and resigned to this.... oh, I'll just give up work and help and support her when her MH inevitably will hit rock bottom. Err no. Tell her this is not recommended, right from the start!

She is very cognitively rigid, I have had to give up work in the past because social cAre and CAMHS support is just not there. Yes, I fear her MH will slide, I kept her off school a year and fought against section while she was a voluntary inpatient, but I know it is better to ensure support for her than stand strongly against her. She did all her GCSEs in one year this year, but she did end up giving up FM before Christmas - I had said she just needed to. She almost had to experience the stress to then give it up.

i think the intention will be to give up an a-level, hopefully art.

I agree that an EPQ can be done more efficiently, she does work like that.

we won’t speak with school now until they start back. We now have CAMHS support, so I think we will work with her CAMHS coordinator also.

I have other autistic children on very low school attendance. The reality is that I will probably struggle to work and meet all their needs.

really grateful for all your feedback. I come from abroad, so the English system is a bit of a mystery to me (although I work in it!).

OP posts:
WordWeird · 27/08/2023 09:09

imip · 27/08/2023 06:53

Well done to your young person @WordWeird !

I think. I am going to have to grit my teeth through this one and potentially have to give up work again to ensure she can manage as I agree that art will be too much. It’s sad that she has the potential and ability to do it all, but such poor CAMHS support during covid left her MH in tatters.

Thank you.

Can school not advise? Am I misreading or is she doing Art A Level in one year and not two? Surely that’s almost impossible on top of three other A Levels?

WordWeird · 27/08/2023 09:06

I think four A Levels including Art is too much even without an EPQ. Art seems to take an infinite amount of time.

I have to say though, if you are organised, I am not sure an EPQ takes a huge amount of time. If you work solidly and efficiently and do a few days in the holidays, it can be done fairly quickly. The repeated tweaking after feedback is a hassle but not too onerous. Both my kids got A stars in their EPQs and it did not take up too much of their lives. They chose stuff they enjoyed and were interested in, which helped.

GOODCAT · 27/08/2023 09:01

In terms of her rigidity of thinking can you say to her that it is important to have balance and devise her some extra curricular stuff that she needs to do instead of the extra A level.

She could do DofE, voluntary work, get a sports qualification or a musical one or make something or have a part time job. Anything to get her focused on something that requires her to think more flexibly.