Independent schools v state

As someone who teaches in a state school, I don't think I can comment on how individual students cope at uni. I do imagine most schools try to teach independent study skills during sixth form, I was more thinking up to GCSE- although I'm sure there's a lot of pressure at some private schools to ensure students don't fail their A-levels!

I've never taught at university level- so I don't really know what happens at that stage. I do think this is why (in some cases) contextual offers for university have validity, even though I know some people on here don't support them.

I think also think the state school landscape has changed a lot since Covid and advent of social media/smart phones and poor behaviour in young people.

A lot of the old research on attainment is simply already out of date, that even includes research on the importance of class sizes. If behaviour is worse and less attentive than 10 years ago then class size does matter more again. Coupled with less availability of experienced teaching, for example. So I always take these studies with a pinch of salt. Things have changed massively. State is and was absolutely fine for my DC, but we have seen a deterioration since Covid due to teacher shortages and a massive boom in private tuition/parents having to support more (and teachers somewhat relying on parents who can having to do that).

I think we need to be a little bit careful about statements regarding average/bit above average intelligence.

I have several properly award winning family members who went into areas like architecture, film, photography who are all dyslexic and were written off as average at the time in the state sector and then moved privately. I came to think that things have improved with regards to dyslexia in the last 20 years, but I increasingly hear that that is not the case anymore due to large class sizes and children with more severe needs requiring more teacher/TA input.

The truth of the matter is simply that some children develop later, that most large academic state schools assess intelligence quite narrowly. It is best to avoid sweeping statements. Many kids simply need a quieter environment to thrive as they process slower. That does not equal average intelligence. We just do not really know enough about the brain yet. I have 4 traditionally very academic kids who process quickly - does that mean they will be a success at uni? Not necessarily in any shape or form. They learn and memorise very quickly and score very highly in IQ tests. However, personality/attitude/work ethic all make a huge difference at uni. A top IQ child who puts in zero work and parties will not necessarily do as well as a more average child who has a fantastic work ethic and amazing revision skills which they developed from primary school age, precisely because they had to.

1. What's the likelihood that these young people go to university and which universities compared with people who didn't have as much support?
2. How do these young people fare at university compared with people who didn't have as much support and, perhaps, didn't get same A-Level results?

I'd say the easiest way to start processing your options would be to go to a few open days at private and state schools. You will quickly from some tours, especially if you get to meet lots of pupils, start to get a sense of the secondary schools in your area and which would be more suited to your child.

Thank you

Multiple sources over the years
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/dec/03/state-school-pupils-university

https://www.abdn.ac.uk/news/11098/

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/news/state-school-pupils-do-better-at-university-cambridge-assessment-research-confirms/

Isn't it even a common sense observation based on on the principle " the higher, the fewer"? @Hoppinggreen
The expectations are much higher at a University level than in Secondary school

Do you have a source for this please?

"How do these young people fare at university when they don't have someone spoonfeeding them"

I think there is some research shows that average or above average grade students in both grammar and private schools perform worse in university compared to normal state school students with similar grades.

I think the difference in results is probably far more visible with children who are average/above average but not exceptionally bright. I do think they are a group who in private schools get a lot more support/attention than in state schools, and will probably achieve better results in private schools.

How do these young people fare at university when they don't have someone spoonfeeding them @Postapocalypticcowgirl ?

As a teacher, I disagree that very bright children can't thrive and be challenged in state schools- although I accept there are schools where this might be an issue.

I think the difference in results is probably far more visible with children who are average/above average but not exceptionally bright. I do think they are a group who in private schools get a lot more support/attention than in state schools, and will probably achieve better results in private schools. In some private schools this may also be the case for below average students, but a lot of private schools don't seem to want to cater to these students.

I think some private schools offer extra curricular activities that state can't match, but some state schools are also very good. And in either type of school, what you get in Y7 may not be what you get in Y11, for all sorts of reasons.

I do think there are private schools which aren't worth the money, and there are also private schools which aren't financially viable, which is something to look out for.

You haven't mentioned finances, but it is worth bearing in mind many private schools are seeing big fee increases year on year at the moment. So you need to budget not just for current fees but a 10%+ increase each year, to be safe.

"Most senior schools have entrance exams (similar to the state 11+ grammar exam content) BUT if you move to a private ‘all through’ school during year 5/6, you will have much easier time getting in, the child might only need to do a taster day (so they can check for bad behaviour, basically)."

Some top academic senior school will do manged out if the kids academic is not up to the standard they wants. Also for popular through schools, year 5/6 will have very limited places and there are academic assessment in place.

A child excelling a state primary will be average, perhaps even below average, in a good private school, as they’ve been on harder work for years.

This isn't true at all, IME.

This is the same for top grammar schools. Mainly attribute to the high expectation of parents from these schools. The school curriculum and high academic intake peers just the baseline, they are willing to top up to stay on top of the game.

Some parents tutor in the top schools, so their kids cover the curriculum ahead of the class and can participate in class since it is revision, therefore really boosting their confidence. We know kids at 11+ that are GCSE maths level and boys in the super selective schools with tutor reviewing their weekly essay based homework and suggesting ways to improve before handing in their work. They get the English text book for the next term and in the weekends and half term will cover it with their tutors. Well, not our vibe but we are aware.

Hi Op. 👋

We have current experience of both state and private schools. This thread has lots of great advice, but also some of things you have been told on this thread are definitely wrong, so as they say: be careful whose advice you buy.

The comment that really bugs me is “smart children will do well in any place.” That’s not true. Very bright children in an average school will not achieve their potential, usually the teacher will ignore them to focus on the struggling/ problem kids. Very bright children in a bad school will be bullied, possibly by staff as well as their peers, and may emerge with their confidence crushed. Very bright children in a great state school will do well, making private school perhaps a waste of money, so the question is, are the state schools near you great, or not?

The most important thing is that your children are happy at school, and for that, they need to fit in. They must not be somewhere where everyone else is richer than them, but equally they need not to be the richest child in class. If your child is into classical music and coding then they will not thrive in a class where everyone else is obsessed with football. If your child is skilled at football then a school focused on rugby may be wrong for them. If your son is shy and short, a boys’ school may go badly. Etc.

Another piece of bad advice on here is that it is state school where you meet ‘all kids of people’. The has not been my experience. At state school our children only met one kind of family: white, local, working class, slightly racist/sexist, vaguely churchgoing. At private school our children have mixed with all races, all levels of income including refugees, working class, wealthy, all religions and none. The only thing they all have in common is good behaviour because bad behaviour gets you kicked out, fast.

Totally agree that private schools filter out the worst behaved children, this is a huge benefit. The teachers may not be any ‘better’ at private, but they are less tired / stressed / distracted, and are able to actually teach.

The best bit of advice on here is to go see the schools. Make appointments with the heads and ask what kind of child thrives there and what is their vision for the school in future. A great state is better than a bad private, but a great private is way better than an average (or bad) state.

Two final points:

1. A child excelling a state primary will be average, perhaps even below average, in a good private school, as they’ve been on harder work for years.
2. Most senior schools have entrance exams (similar to the state 11+ grammar exam content) BUT if you move to a private ‘all through’ school during year 5/6, you will have much easier time getting in, the child might only need to do a taster day (so they can check for bad behaviour, basically).

There are pros and cons to every path forward and you never get to find out where a different choice would have taken you. Good luck with whatever you decide.

I was state educated as it my daughter. Neither of us went to high performing state schools but we both came out with straight As/A*s. If the child is supported at home and encouraged to learn the chances are they will do well wherever. I also didn't grow up with a sense of privilege because my parents could buy a 'better' education and I genuinely think that has helped me in life.

I did private schools in the 1990s and hated it. I picked state as I thought about all my friends and family who went to private. For us it wasn't easily affordable. I decided 50% would have been better off if parents had saved the money towards deposit/ bought a house for them. However there were also 50% who's private education I believe contributed to their success. There was also a a tiny number who might have been better off in state (one has gone to jail and I think he might have stuck to the law without all his rich friends to keep up with, another who's gone bankrupt - again having to keep up with rich trust fund friends, and another who committed suicide in her early 20s).

The point is there are no certainties and if you can't easily afford it, be cautious.

The teaching in" superior" grammars is not better than in state comprehensive. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case in private selective.

Interestingly, I have been talking to a friend whose DC is privately educated, and has loads of friends whose DC are also privately educated.

What struck me was how many of these DC also have to have tutors on top of their "superior" education. Several of these DC go to a highly regarded school in South London that gets mentioned quite frequently on here. If the teaching was that good why do they need tutors?

I don't have any personal experience of private schools. But I think they offer opportunities in sport etc that state schools can't, but not necessarily a better education. There is also the 'its not what you know, it's who you know' advantage that private school students will get.

I teach in the state sector and I will say that the only private school teachers I know are those who left the state sector as they could not hack it. So you will not necessarily be getting 'better' teaching.

I work in a bog standard state school (good Ofsted, deprived area). Every year we send students to Oxbridge and also ivy league universities. Our pastoral care is excellent. State education can be as good or better. However, my son is a cricketer and the majority of his team mates are privately educated and you can definitely see the advantages they have.

I am against private education in its current form (I don't think they should have charitable status) but I can see why those that can afford it would choose it. Not from an academic point of view though.

In my opinion. Go for the state primary. Try grammar. If can not get in, go to good private. Save money on tuition, clubs and holidays. You achieve more controlling how you spend on your kids only rather than other things that you can not see. Smart kids will always be doing well in any place. Home education is far more important than school. But if you have multi M free money, that is a different story, you will not ask this question. But a good reputation school that your kids like is more relevant than just private or state.