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Original poster

Is DS's lack of motivation with A levels normal?

94 replies

MerryMarigold · 15/07/2023 12:33

Just finishing Y12. Dire mock results (B,D,E). He does do some schoolwork, but I wouldn't say he works hard - he will look up answers and he maybe puts in 1 hour a day at most. He doesn't go out, he doesn't work, so he has time to put in extra work but he doesn't. He mostly plays Fifa, or watches stuff on Netflix. He just doesn't seem motivated or interested in what he's chosen, and chose subjects he's always struggled with because he thought they were 'useful'! The subject he got the B in is something he enjoys and is 'easier' than Maths and Physics. I can't relate. I did subjects I enjoyed and was good at. He is convinced he is not 'talented' and seems to want to be one of those people who gets a B with minimum effort and an A* with some effort. Realistically for him, he can get a C with a LOT of work. I can see why he's not that motivated.

I don't know where to go from here. He is ND, not fully diagnosed (he has an ADHD diagnosis, but I think he shows more ASD symptoms to be honest). He did not want to go to college to do something maybe more suited to him because he did not like the travel (it was about 1.5 hours each way) nor the 'difference'. Staying at school was simple and he knows it well/ knew the people etc.

I have got him some tutoring for the Maths, which he said he wanted after the E grade, but he is dragging his feet over it (eg. logging in 5 mins late, not really wanting to do it), and I resent that when I am paying a lot for it.

What can I do to help him? What are the options? I am dreading Y13 and the amount of stress/ damage to his self esteem.

OP posts:
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ReleasetheCrackHen · 19/07/2023 06:16

MerryMarigold · 18/07/2023 21:08

Thanks for looking. There are apprenticeships but not in design. Engineering, HR, finance, IT etc.

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Er, engineering IS design when it comes to cars.

Dixiechickonhols · 18/07/2023 21:35

Is it worth going to the college with him and seeing what courses and support they offer.
Maths and Physics when you aren’t naturally good at them sounds like he’s setting himself up for an absolutely miserable year and failure.
For self esteem would a pt job help. My dc is at McDonalds. They’re really good at working around school/college. She has a physical disability and some lads in kitchen have autism.

Original poster
MerryMarigold · 18/07/2023 21:23

@Jellycats4life and @Postapocalypticcowgirl you are probably right. I need to back off. I'm pretty hands off most of the time, and have really let him do what he wants this year. I know I need to let him fail - I don't have much choice . He's 17, I can only give him choices and advice. But his self esteem is so low already, I'd much rather that he did something which he enjoyed/ was good at and that would really build his confidence. It's so hard to watch your child fail when they already feel awful about themselves. I've talked to him about forcing a square peg into a round hole. He just feels terrible that he's not a round peg ☹️.

Anyway, had a good chat with head of 6th form today. She basically was encouraging him to go elsewhere! (He wasn't in the conversation as he had a different appointment and she couldn't do any other time). I think she was agreeing with me that he needed this year to stay at school and grow up a bit but it's going to be very difficult for him to work so hard at subjects he doesn't love. And it is going to take A LOT of work over the summer and next year on a continual basis to get him up to a C.

OP posts:
Original poster
MerryMarigold · 18/07/2023 21:13

Needmorelego · 18/07/2023 18:31

@MerryMarigold why isn’t he doing design based A-Level subjects or equivalent (btec/T-Level etc)?

He has some weird rigid ideas (ASD?) and he thinks Maths and Physics is the only way into cars, alongside Product Design. Cars are his passion. He's also convinced he's not good at art (in the traditional sense, his drawing is not great, he's also dyspraxic) or that art is for girls (he's extremely insecure, bit his at going against the grain). Unfortunately his school didn't offer photography, which he'd have been great at. He just has a fantastic 'eye'.

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Original poster
MerryMarigold · 18/07/2023 21:08

ReleasetheCrackHen · 18/07/2023 17:24

As for car design apprenticeships they do exist.
https://www.jaguarlandrovercareers.com/content/Apprentices/

https://www.bmwgroup.jobs/gb/en/opportunities/apprentice.html

Thanks for looking. There are apprenticeships but not in design. Engineering, HR, finance, IT etc.

OP posts:
ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 18/07/2023 18:55

I used to teach A level Graphics. Quite a few got jobs in car design after their degrees. It’s not that rare.

I was told there’s no jobs in the area of design l did. Still managed to use that degree for 35 years

Needmorelego · 18/07/2023 18:31

@MerryMarigold why isn’t he doing design based A-Level subjects or equivalent (btec/T-Level etc)?

Jellycats4life · 18/07/2023 18:17

Do you think car design is a bit of a pipe dream? As in, it’s his special interest and can’t envisage doing anything else? Kind of reminds me of my kids, who obviously want to be YouTubers because that’s a totally viable life plan 😉

I agree with @Postapocalypticcowgirl in that maybe you need to let him fail, because it doesn’t look like he’s able to see things objectively right now. A hard lesson, but maybe a necessary one. But of course hope for the best that he manages to knuckle down, despite the ND challenges which obviously aren’t his fault.

ReleasetheCrackHen · 18/07/2023 17:21

OP,
He has been diagnosed with ADHD, is there a reason why he isn’t on any medication for his ADHD? I think 1-2hrs revisions day is more than enough and he is showing motivating and dedication. I am thinking that it may be more lack of ability to focus and retain information - a key part of ADHD- that is holding him back.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 18/07/2023 17:14

MerryMarigold · 16/07/2023 22:48

I had a chat with him today. He is adamant he will be ok next year!! 'Everyone in his class got predicted low, he was in the middle, some were much worse, if he hadn't been ill and missed a whole question he'd have got a B, he actually likes maths, he likes it more than physics, there's nothing else he'd like to do more'. 🙄 This is one of his traits. He can be totally in denial but then gets extremely stressed when reality starts to hit. It's really hard to handle. I don't know what that's a symptom of, or if it's just a symptom of him.

He has a very VERY specific idea of what he wants to do after school. He wants an apprenticeship in car design. He doesn't want to go to uni and get the debt. Sadly these type of apprenticeships don't actually exist but he doesn't listen. I've looked at apprenticeships for about a year, he hasn't. It's another denial thing. There are a few uni options in this field... They will need some work, he would need to get together a portfolio. They tend to require 3Cs but place more emphasis on portfolio.

To be honest I just feel like giving up today. I hardly slept last night thinking through all the options, his googling potential courses, and I wanted to have a good, serious chat with him about his potential options - but it's all dismissed as everything is FINE with a million excuses for what went wrong in his exams. Somehow, magically he's going to do amazingly in September mocks - despite doing no work whatsoever today or yesterday. It's just going to happen. Until it doesn't and then we deal with the fall out.

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I think if he is in complete denial, there is not much you can do. I have taught students like this before- sitting on an E, and adamant it'll all be fine, adamant they'll do more work next time. And yes, there is always an excuse why they couldn't do XYZ. If he missed a topic because he was ill, why hasn't he caught it up before the mock? When is he planning to do this?

It's good he has an idea of a field he would like to go into, even if it's very specific. All I would say is that he does have options going forwards, and it's probably not worth arguing yourself into the ground over this.

  1. If he ends up with less than ideal grades in Y13, retaking the year will likely be an option. He may even be able to "fast track" a new A-level, instead of retaking his worst option. Maybe that won't be right for him, but it would be an option in most schools.

  2. If his grades aren't quite right for the courses he wants, or he doesn't have a portfolio, then a foundation year may be the right option to bridge the gap between sixth form and uni.

  3. If he completely crashes and burns, he may be able to find an apprenticeship that's similar to what he wants, or alternatively access courses may be able to get him into a uni course he wants.

If he's in denial, then it may be that seeing the grades in black and white next summer is needed? Maybe it's time for you to take a step back? I know that's not easy though.

Needmorelego · 18/07/2023 14:13

@MerryMarigold I gonna be honest here - I don’t think A-Levels are for him. He doesn’t seem interested. Hasn’t chosen subjects he particularly likes.
Unless he has a very specific goal that requires A-Levels in those subjects I would encourage him to do something else.

Original poster
MerryMarigold · 18/07/2023 13:21

Thanks @Jellycats4life. What you've written is all so true. At GCSE he did ok. He got mostly 6s, 5s (Spanish, Product Design), 7 for Maths (probably did 5x as much work for it than any other subject. Nearly got a 7 in Biology and History with little work) and 8 for RE (teacher assessed grade though). His processing is quite slow, so fast-paced teaching is difficult for him. He needs to go back over lessons but that's where the motivation kicks in, and he doesn't have it. I really don't think highly academic/ competitive subjects are his thing but he gets so upset if you imply that. He's doing so well in his other subject (not really Mickey Mouse, but more creative). The perfect storm is not just his additional needs but also his siblings are very academic and doing extremely well (still only Y9) and he compares himself all the time to them.

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Original poster
MerryMarigold · 18/07/2023 13:00

Needmorelego · 17/07/2023 22:55

@MerryMarigold you say he hasn’t done any revision “today”. What on earth is he revising for with just a few days left of this academic year? The exams for this year a done. No wonder he is overwhelmed by it all. It’s about to be the summer holidays. I expect he might be given some assignments to do during the holiday but he doesn’t need to be constantly revising surely?
I don’t mean this to sound rude (apologies if it does) it just sounds over the top for the summer - let him have a break and enjoy the summer holiday.

He's on work experience for the past 2 weeks but it's part time. He will have about 3 weeks off in the summer hols when we're away, but apart from that he needs to work on maths and physics if he wants to carry on with those subjects. Getting a D and E next year is a waste of 2 years and he'd be better off doing something else than carrying on and getting that. I'm open to him doing other things and have given him a lot of ideas, and him having 6 weeks off, but currently if he wants to stick in 6th form he does need to work. They have exams in Sept very soon after they get back to see if they can improve their predicted grades.

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Jellycats4life · 18/07/2023 11:37

Ah, poor kid. Sounds like the perfect storm of lots of issues.

How did he perform at GCSE? I remember the jump from GCSE to A Level felt really big, and with a much bigger emphasis on just getting on with things plus a lot of self-directed study. I also suddenly found myself (a bright kid from a poorly performing school) in a sixth form environment where I no longer felt like one of the high-achieving students who could breeze through everything relatively easily. Suddenly I had to try hard and that affected my confidence hugely.

I now know that I am neurodivergent, and looking back I struggled so badly with motivation and executive function it’s a miracle I got through them at all.

I also messed up with my subject choices! I do understand wanting to do subjects that “look good” rather than what I was good at. For some insane reason I felt I should do A Level Maths (if I’m honest, I wanted to do it for the prestige) but now, with the benefit of hindsight I know that my processing speed when it comes to numbers isn’t great, and I just couldn’t follow the lessons at the fast pace they were taught.

I bombed Maths at the end of year 12 and dropped it. Ended up picking up a Mickey Mouse A Level (I won’t say what 🤣) and completed it in a year.

You’re right to think he can’t carry on with year 13 the way things are going. But I do understand that he’s emotionally volatile and having that conversation will be tough (I have autistic kids too so I really get it).

He could very well be autistic and ADHD. I honestly think they occur together more often that not, and it’s like tossing a coin re. which of the two they are diagnosed with first.

curtainnetblind · 18/07/2023 06:47

@Needmorelego his "revision" is the revision of his work that he covered in year 12 as his grades are way below where he wants them to be. Yes it is the summer holidays, Ds2 is year 12 and has been set work by college to complete and is voluntarily doing other work which will benefit him in year 13. If I take Ds2 as an example, he is awake for about 14 hours a day so has plenty of time to divide that up into a small amount of work and the rest doing whatever he wants. He broke up on 7th July and goes back 5th September.

The OP's son wants to improve his grade from an E which is going to require commitment and timetabling in a revision slot. He has options which include repeating the year but it comes with complications re funding and he doesn't want to change his college. He could drop out altogether but it seems he doesn't want that either. The B is great but the other D and E suggest he is missing a lot of knowledge that he will be building on for year 13, especially maths.

He also wants an apprenticeship, they are pretty cut throat, they aren't just open to 18 year olds but anyone who wants to apply to it. Finding one can be far more difficult than applying to uni. Sometimes there is only 1 in the region, where they advertise these apprenticeship roles is all over the place. It is not something we have looked into as both of my sons are/were on the uni pathway. The parents' evening we went to had a wealth of knowledge and support for students wanting apprenticeships but not all sixth forms and colleges offer brilliant support. The fact that the OP's school didn't warrant an EHCP for her friend's son is very telling about their SENDCo provision.

Needmorelego · 17/07/2023 22:55

@MerryMarigold you say he hasn’t done any revision “today”. What on earth is he revising for with just a few days left of this academic year? The exams for this year a done. No wonder he is overwhelmed by it all. It’s about to be the summer holidays. I expect he might be given some assignments to do during the holiday but he doesn’t need to be constantly revising surely?
I don’t mean this to sound rude (apologies if it does) it just sounds over the top for the summer - let him have a break and enjoy the summer holiday.

Original poster
MerryMarigold · 17/07/2023 22:32

@curtainnetblind , thanks. That's great advice. I agree on the C/D but he won't see it. He says he's aiming for an A in order to get a B. This is ask talk. We have come up with a programe of revision but he's been unwell today (also explains the massive meltdown) so hasn't done any.

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Original poster
MerryMarigold · 17/07/2023 22:25

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 17/07/2023 16:50

That sounds awful. Have you applied for an EHCP. He sounds like he is really struggling.

Dd just refused to go anymore. She’s in ASD burnout, and really isn’t up to any academics at the moment.

Thanks. We have no hope of an EHCP. My friend had to go to appeal just to get the assessment for EHCP! Her son is diagnosed with ASD by Great Ormond St and he attends school around 30% (he's in Y10). There is no way on this earth I could get one.

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curtainnetblind · 17/07/2023 20:26

@MerryMarigold that sounds awful, you are just trying to help him but he can't see it.

Re the maths, as noble (maths teacher) has said before, if they come in on a grade 7 at GCSE then they are most likely to come out with a C/D anyway, they don't have the foundational knowledge to build on. So it isn't that far fetched that he got an E. If he was motivated he could block out a timetable that means he goes back over his year 12 work for all subjects. But it sounds like he is going to need a lot of input from you with organising that.

There are apprenticeship fairs, we have one in a massive arena near to us, google and see what is available to you locally. My son's sixth form has a uni pathway and a world of work which is any job and any apprenticeship. They are an incredible resource, we recently had a parents' evening about both. See if there is any guidance from your son's. Also does he not have a student handbook? Mine did, again this lists who is their head of their house, who they go to if they need support and what support they offer etc. See if sixth form will provide one to you.

If he doesn't have his life figured out at 17 it isn't the end of the world. You know him best and I really hope he finds a way forward, whatever that may be.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 17/07/2023 16:50

That sounds awful. Have you applied for an EHCP. He sounds like he is really struggling.

Dd just refused to go anymore. She’s in ASD burnout, and really isn’t up to any academics at the moment.

Original poster
MerryMarigold · 17/07/2023 16:45

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 17/07/2023 16:16

The stress of A levels drove my 17 year old out too. She’s ASD.

I'd be happy if he'd face that and do something else but he thinks he'll be fine. I'd be happy for him to do anything which built his confidence and self esteem. Judging by his summer exams results combined with how stressed he was over GCSEs, next year will be a nightmare for him and therefore the whole family. He loses it when stressed, has massive meltdowns, shouts, breaks things (he even broke his hand). It's horrible for all of us and I'm so scared that's coming again. I have emailed the school to discuss things and I told him this. I said I'd rather be came to a meeting but I can go alone if he prefers. He went absolutely beserk at me this morning, there's no need for a meeting, he's doing really well, he was just ill, he's going to get an A in Maths, he hates me, he wishes me dead etc etc. It was horrible. I understand a bit of why, because he is so incredibly insecure that if I even suggest he might be better off doing something else that means he's failed and isn't clever enough. It's really hard to balance dealing with the grades in a realistic way, looking at other options with his deep insecurity.

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ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 17/07/2023 16:16

The stress of A levels drove my 17 year old out too. She’s ASD.

BadGranny · 17/07/2023 16:09

I had a lovely conversation recently with 17yo granddaughter. She started A levels at college, but absolutely hated it - said the stress teachers put on them made her feel ill. So she jacked it in and now earns good money working in a cafe. She isn’t opposed to studying but she admits she has no idea what she wants to do long term, and she’d rather be working steadily and earning a living while she figures it out. Once she does, if she needs A levels and a degree, she’ll do them later in life.

I think she’s got her head well screwed on. Maybe the OP’s son might consider other options (employment, apprenticeship, for example). Despite what most of MN seems to think, A levels and a degree are not the only route into the future.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 17/07/2023 15:54

He may need help with organisation from school.