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Original poster

11+ is going to ruin me

442 replies

AlwaysReadyNeverSteady · 24/06/2023 12:40

Hi, sorry if this is garbled, I've had a very emotionally fraught morning.

DS is due to sit 11+ this September. He has had a 1:1 tutor for around 18 months. She comes very well recommended and is known for being upfront with parents if she thinks their child might not be quite right for the process/test. She assures me he is able enough.

He's been doing well across all areas, although slightly less so on the maths. He has a LOT of homework which I try to spread out across the week, so we're only doing a couple of (set pages) of books a night and the corrections for practise tests he'd done to previous week with tutor.

Its not always been easy to get him to focus after school, which I do understand as he works hard at school too, but we get through it. Lately he has been so emotional about it and I've apparently just got to the bottom of why... Sat with him this morning, going through corrections of test he'd sat last week. Just burst into tears, beside himself, wouldn't tell me why... Gave him some space and afterwards he told me it's because he doesn't like the way I explain things to him and that I'm "too positive."

For context, I've been a primary school teacher for 14 years. I know how to teach children and what works for different children. My kids at school always achieve well, above national expectations and I've never had any complaints about my teaching style. I never get frustrated with him, am supportive and encouraging and always try to approach the work with a positive attitude, explaining misconceptions patiently.
I'm a single parent and work full time teaching, so to be completely honest it's a massive slog for me to keep motivated and positive for him doing all this by myself. His father is utterly useless and does NONE of the work with him.

I just don't know what to do. This whole process is killing me, I am utterly exhausted. Hearing what he said has just knocked me for six. All this money and time I've invested and endless motivation when I've been on my knees after hard days at work. And I've upset him.

I'm sad and confused and I don't know what to do. I have asked him multiple times if it's because he doesn't want to carry on and he always says he doesn't want to give up.

What do I do?

OP posts:
YoDood · 25/06/2023 20:53

He is burnt out OP.

Did he really need 18 months of tutoring with extra work with his mum on top (and his dad, if you had your way)?? Our two did 3 months of cramming with a tutor from a standing start and got into a top London independent.

Suggests either that you’re over doing it or that he’s not there academically, in which case these won’t be the right schools for him.

Either way you will damage your relationship with him and it will kill his enthusiasm for learning.

RedFluffyPanda · 25/06/2023 20:50

@AlwaysReadyNeverSteady

Apologies, have not read all of the posts.

Religious schools? Relocation?

Apply for more distant schools and find a Special Circumstances?

Well...you probably thought about all options:)

Just worrying that you will be devastated if he doesn't get it. He shows signs of " burning" point.

My son attends 11+ tutoring but I don't like local grammar, we just see it is great for his knowledge.

RedFluffyPanda · 25/06/2023 20:44

@NowYouSee really? I wasn't aware of it but thank you for telling me.
And they still assume that the exam is based only on school curriculum? Lol

Greentree1 · 25/06/2023 20:42

Not in your position, but I tried to help my DD with maths, I am really good at maths, but she hated me trying to help because I did it differently. I gave up apart from saying when she was wrong and why, if I thought I could explain it her way. A nightmare. She did great in the end.

ScoobyBooby · 25/06/2023 20:42

We are looking looking into a particular school for DD that requires the 11+ math and English.

We don’t have a tutor for her , I’m now wondering if it’s worth all the stress for her to sit the exam in September without having a tutor ? x

Grumpypupster · 25/06/2023 20:37

Hi, I was where you are last year...DD was about to sit the 11+. The local comps are dire around here, the behaviour they show on the way to school, and the school buses have actually stopped and kicked all children off as they were so badly behaved on the bus they refused to go further.
DD agreed she didn't want to go there... She is a quiet girl and can be easily led....so I did worry she would fall in with a bad crowd, and also she's easily distracted so she would have been distracted by others misbehaving in class.

I am a bit surprised that your tutor hasn't taught all the curriculum needed for the test yet, Our tutor did a different aspect every week to get everything taught....before starting on mock tests.

Try not to worry too much about having a "not as good" subject. My DD it was English comprehension.... She'd get 95%+ on vr/NVR and 60%ish on English.... her good scores bumped up her overall score and took her above average.

And maybe speak to the tutor and mention D's doesn't want you to go through the work with him...if that's getting him stressed then the tutor needs to be doing this. (It is what you pay them for) give it a few weeks and see if it helps.

Good luck 🤞

Stonetears · 25/06/2023 20:37

Upon lots of reflection, I think the fact that she has been setting him so much work around things he is already very competent with (NVR and VR) .. this is probably to improve his timing - I remember my eldests tutor set him lots of maths which was his thing - a very high score on that compensated for a low NVR .. so definitely come back to those areas nearer the time

NowYouSee · 25/06/2023 20:37

@RedFluffyPanda you’re incorrect, many state grammar 11+ exams require NVR including the Birmingham consortium the OP’s son is sitting.

Original poster
AlwaysReadyNeverSteady · 25/06/2023 20:36

RedFluffyPanda · 25/06/2023 20:32

So you are aiming at private schools? Grammar schools don't require NVR.

If in mock tests he is below 80 percent I would make a shift in head and start understanding that he may not get to the highly selective schools.

But not all private and grammars are highly selective and he still can make it.

You have to embrace it. There is a live outside of selective schools, you know :)?

No, it's grammar. GL boards definitely do require NVR for Grammar.

Yes, I'm aware there is a life outside of selective/grammar schools. I've acknowledged it multiple times in this thread. I'd be more than happy for him to go to a decent comprehensive. I just don't happen to live in the immediate catchment of one.

OP posts:
ThanksItHasPockets · 25/06/2023 20:35

RedFluffyPanda · 25/06/2023 20:32

So you are aiming at private schools? Grammar schools don't require NVR.

If in mock tests he is below 80 percent I would make a shift in head and start understanding that he may not get to the highly selective schools.

But not all private and grammars are highly selective and he still can make it.

You have to embrace it. There is a live outside of selective schools, you know :)?

The Birmingham GL Assessment test does. English comprehension, verbal reasoning, maths and non-verbal / spatial reasoning.

RedFluffyPanda · 25/06/2023 20:32

So you are aiming at private schools? Grammar schools don't require NVR.

If in mock tests he is below 80 percent I would make a shift in head and start understanding that he may not get to the highly selective schools.

But not all private and grammars are highly selective and he still can make it.

You have to embrace it. There is a live outside of selective schools, you know :)?

Original poster
AlwaysReadyNeverSteady · 25/06/2023 20:24

ThanksItHasPockets · 25/06/2023 19:34

I’ve re-read this and I don’t think my final sentence is clear, sorry. I meant that they would be in for a tough time at a grammar if they needed more than 18 months‘ tutoring along with their natural aptitude in order to get in.

Show quote history

Thank you @ThanksItHasPockets x

I've done exactly that this afternoon. Had a really frank chat with his told her we will be scaling the homework right back and that I will be very much taking a back seat 👍

If the pressure keeps piling on, I'll be taking him out of the tutoring and perhaps look at the atom learning other posters have kindly suggested, as we'll be able to take that at a pace DS is comfortable with.

Upon lots of reflection, I think the fact that she has been setting him so much work around things he is already very competent with (NVR and VR) that it became overwhelming. We need to focus on what needs work, not doing to death the aspects he's already very comfortable with.

We'll see anyway. I've appreciated the fantastic advice and have put some changes in place today that will hopefully take the pressure off x

OP posts:
NowYouSee · 25/06/2023 20:23

I completely get it OP. We did the grammar 11+ and then some private exams. I think if you’ve not been through it you don’t get it.

Also worth remembering he is only 10. My 10 year old equally wanted to pass BUT constantly moaned and groaned about the actual sitting down and doing the work because in that moment they’d rather have done something else. Whilst they intellectually understood they needed to do the work to pass (which they did really want), the maturity to translate that into proactively wanting to sit down and work as opposed to watching Tv or playing a computer game.

Following advice of friends who had been through it I’m afraid we turned to bribery - a token for each period done, could be cashed in at pre agreed exchange rate for wanted items. For comparatively little money it worked better than before it.

Original poster
AlwaysReadyNeverSteady · 25/06/2023 20:17

explainthistomeplease · 25/06/2023 18:42

'I used a tutor because I can't be both to my son.'

And yet that's why you've been posting here - you've slipped into the role of if not tutor then chief encourager to do work he doesn't always want to do. And you've been advised to step back.

That really is the most useful advice. And of course the thread has spilled over into other areas. It's a chat.
Chats tend to.

I know it's the most useful advice. This is evident because I've acknowledged it multiple times in this thread, have agreed wholeheartedly and said I will act upon it.

What is it exactly that you are taking issue with?

OP posts:
ThanksItHasPockets · 25/06/2023 19:34

ThanksItHasPockets · 25/06/2023 19:24

OP, I know your area well. Depending on where you are it may be worth trying for ATS, PS, or FA. The birth rate is slightly lower in the current year 5 so competition for places won’t be quite as mad as it was for September ‘23.

Otherwise I think you are very wise in your decision to back off a bit. Tell the tutor you won’t be going through the corrections any more. A bright child should be able to meet the required standard with 18 months of fairly light-touch tutoring; with all kindness, if they can’t, they are in for a very tough 5-7 years.

I’ve re-read this and I don’t think my final sentence is clear, sorry. I meant that they would be in for a tough time at a grammar if they needed more than 18 months‘ tutoring along with their natural aptitude in order to get in.

ThanksItHasPockets · 25/06/2023 19:24

OP, I know your area well. Depending on where you are it may be worth trying for ATS, PS, or FA. The birth rate is slightly lower in the current year 5 so competition for places won’t be quite as mad as it was for September ‘23.

Otherwise I think you are very wise in your decision to back off a bit. Tell the tutor you won’t be going through the corrections any more. A bright child should be able to meet the required standard with 18 months of fairly light-touch tutoring; with all kindness, if they can’t, they are in for a very tough 5-7 years.

explainthistomeplease · 25/06/2023 18:42

'I used a tutor because I can't be both to my son.'

And yet that's why you've been posting here - you've slipped into the role of if not tutor then chief encourager to do work he doesn't always want to do. And you've been advised to step back.

That really is the most useful advice. And of course the thread has spilled over into other areas. It's a chat.
Chats tend to.

thing47 · 25/06/2023 17:34

PPs are correct to say that in fully selective areas, the alternatives to grammar schools are not comprehensives, since they aren't taking the highest-scoring 25-30% from the 11+ exam. They are Secondary Moderns. That term may not be in use any more, but that precisely defines what they are.

That said, DD2 went to one such school and her entire friendship group of 8 went on to university because they had a) very good teachers and a strong SLT, b) supportive home environments (even the households where English isn't a first language, the parents were keen on education) and c) a peer group which was uniformly aiming to go on to get degrees.

2 of them (including DD2) went on to get absolutely stellar Masters qualifications, another is in medical training and the others are variously in professions all requiring degrees.

Of course there are some poor schools around, but as @redskytwonight says, not nearly as many as MN would have you believe.

Original poster
AlwaysReadyNeverSteady · 25/06/2023 17:05

Good god I wish people would read the full thread.

Supporting my child through this process is easier than having to break down everything I've said over and and over again.

No one is bashing comprehensives as a whole.
The school I don't want to send my child to is a continually underachieving school with poor results, poor behaviour and while we're at it, poor safeguarding. You're more than welcome to send your child there. I don't want that for my son.

No thank you.

I am entitled to make that choice free from judgement. Actually, carry on, you can judge all you like, I honestly don't care, because I don't generally heed the advice of people who are talking nonsense.

OP posts:
Original poster
AlwaysReadyNeverSteady · 25/06/2023 16:59

Milkbottle2000 · 25/06/2023 16:46

You say 'You know how to teach children' yet you use the services of a tutor. YOU can't do both! I can only imagine the pressure the poor child is under with effectively two tutors.

Either you step away and trust the tutor, or fire them and DIY.

You say the school in catchment is ' categorically bad' because leary sports team and you seeing kids ( I presume on the streets)...and Ofsted. Do you even know anyone who teaches there? Any Parents??

You may be a teacher of x number of years, but teaching and parenting are two different things , a good teacher can still be a terrible parent. (And I don't think you are, just a bit too tiger...)

Show quote history

I used a tutor because I can't be both to my son.

I simply support him should he need some help. I don't tutor him, he has one tutor and one parent. Just like he has one teacher and one parent who helps him with his homework, should he need it. No different.

Yes, I know teachers who have taught there and it is a poor school.
Unsure as to why you would suggest I haven't done extensive research around my child's options. I have. The behaviour and attainment ARE CONSISTENTLY POOR. I have that information from several reputable sources, including the consecutive Ofsted reports. I'm more than capable of making that judgement.

Please stop referring to him as a "poor child".
It's just silly.

OP posts:
Milkbottle2000 · 25/06/2023 16:46

AlwaysReadyNeverSteady · 25/06/2023 09:27

Thank you for the positive comments, they've really helped this morning ❤️

I'd just like to clear things up about my thoughts on comprehensives.
I categorically do NOT think that comprehensives are a substandard choice. Far from it. The town in which I live has at least three which are brilliant schools. One in particular is absolutely fantastic and is extremely highly regarded, I would LOVE him to be able to there. The catchment is around 0.6 miles on a good year. You cannot get in unless you have the means to live in a £350,000+ property. Inflated prices because of the standard of the school. I simply don't have the means.

The others, again are great schools, great Ofsteds (I know this is not the be all, before anyone jumps on me) good behaviour and very good results. I know this because I have friends with children at these schools. I respect my friends opinions and have seen for my self how their children have developed and progressed. Again, the catchment is small with very expensive housing.

I happen to live in a borderline area where it's a big risk as to whether he'd get either of the other two options. What he would definitely be offered is the dreadful school 0.25 miles away. Which is awful. I know this because I have read Ofsted reports, which have never been good, I have seen the children myself and know staff who take sports teams there to compete and there are always fights and it has a generally very poor work culture.

Just because this is the case does NOT mean I am saying all comprehensives are bad. This one categorically is. I'm unsure as to why some posters seem to think it is my child's responsibility to be a support human in essence, to be the bright child in a poorly performing school in order to drag it up. That's not his job.

I went to a crap school. Yes, I've done well but I know it was a LOT harder to get there, having to battle through absolute chaos most days in order to learn, than it would have been if I was in a better school.

So, I'd like the defenders of comps to actually listen to what I'm saying - I'm on your side, I defend them too! I'd like DS to go to a good one, not one that I KNOW is very poor, with poor outcomes.
Who on earth would actually want that for their child???

You say 'You know how to teach children' yet you use the services of a tutor. YOU can't do both! I can only imagine the pressure the poor child is under with effectively two tutors.

Either you step away and trust the tutor, or fire them and DIY.

You say the school in catchment is ' categorically bad' because leary sports team and you seeing kids ( I presume on the streets)...and Ofsted. Do you even know anyone who teaches there? Any Parents??

You may be a teacher of x number of years, but teaching and parenting are two different things , a good teacher can still be a terrible parent. (And I don't think you are, just a bit too tiger...)

3luckystars · 25/06/2023 16:40

Well other countries don’t have this problem so it’s the school system in the Uk that’s the problem really.

it sounds like you are doing your best. What more can you do?

Original poster
AlwaysReadyNeverSteady · 25/06/2023 16:38

*whose

OP posts:
Original poster
AlwaysReadyNeverSteady · 25/06/2023 16:37

Absolutely. I so, so wish things were different for those children, I truly do
I teach children everyday who come from families who's situation breaks my heart. I'm plugging gaps left, right and centre.

But... Of course people put their own children above the bigger picture. Little children are not support humans. It is not the responsibility of bright children from good homes to raise attainment in schools were they will have a terrible experience and not achieve their potential. Adults need to plug that gap.
I don't know what the answer is. But it's not sacrificing bright children's opportunities in order to raise the attainment of such schools.

I'm not furious with anyone. Apart from the government.

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 25/06/2023 16:15

It’s all part of a broken society and system isn’t it.

Piss poor parenting is often due to poverty and lack of opportunity on the part of the parents themselves. Schools are massively under-funded and teachers are leaving in droves….even from good schools as the pressures of working with such poor resources make it intolerable for many. We have decades of poor funding and low achievement and it flows through the generations. Most people want to do what seems best for their kids….but that’s not clear-cut. People looking out for their own kids (understandably) who remove their kids from the local schools to access better, leave those remaining in the other schools in an even worse situation. But most people want to put their own kids ahead of bigger principles.

Absolutley, there should be great schooling available for all kids. There isn’t and the causes of that are multiple and complex.

Honestly, I don’t think being furious with families who are often at the bottom of the heap in terms of their own opportunities is the key.