11+ is going to ruin me

Or maybe some of us read the first page, had to do something, posted a reply and by that time many pages had then popped up 🤷‍♀️

Agree very much with you @twistyizzy

"maybe we should be looking at whether the children would pass the tests on their own accord? "

In what way you can not reduce the chance of a "bright" kid not tutor vs a less "bright" kid but with more time and effort in tutor? We are talking about these are all top 30% of the y5/6 students here it is not just a boundary issue.

It is a supply and demand problem.

Maybe my definition should change yes but also maybe we should be looking at whether the children would pass the tests on their own accord? If every parent stopped tutoring (not going to happen I know) then that wouldn't stop the brightest kids getting into the grammar schools because they would then just reduce the boundary at which they accept children.
My point was that tutoring just artificially inflates the entrance requirements and for some kids puts unnecessary pressure on them purely for their parents' ambitions.

"creates a vicious circle because parents see other children being tutored so they feel pressured to get a tutor for their children."

So if majority of the students get to a grammar nowadays are top say 30% of the year 5/6 group (and who self select to go to grammar in the first place) and most of them had some form of tutor (say paid or parent taught doesn't matter) at the length of 6/12/18/24 months, pace and intensity varies depends on competition of entry level of grammar schools. Do you think the definition of your grammar material should be change?

Does it make a kid tutor for 6 months a more grammar material than a kid for 18 months? I don't think so.

Grammar material (I am one of them being am ex-grammar pupil) is motivated and independent learner who would be working towards the top of their year group in Yr 5+ 6. I would expect them to need some element of revision but it is now getting ridiculous with kids spending 2 years being tutored just to pass the test!
We never had tutors to pass 11+ years ago and so only the top % of kids who sat it passed and went on to grammar. That was the whole point of the test in the first place but now the attitude seems to be that every child should sit it even if they need 2 years of private tutoring! It is complete madness. The stress being put on these children by parents is crazy and creates a vicious circle because parents see other children being tutored so they feel pressured to get a tutor for their children.

"Let him be a child! If he isn't grammar material"

Here comes another one

BTW what is grammar material?

DD went private school for secondary , from a state primary. The entrance exam was January I'm Yr 6 so obviously they hadn't covered the full curriculum. We got a tutor for 6 months beforehand to teach the full Yr 6 syllabus.
Honestly if she had needed more than 6 months tutoring in order to pass the entrance exam than I wouldn't have put her in for it. So many excessively tutored kids really struggle at secondary (either 11+ or private) because take the tutor away and it ie clear that they aren't naturally at the required standard when left to their own devices.
Let him be a child! If he isn't grammar material then that's nothing to be ashamed of and he will probably be a lot happier at a state non-selective secondary school. It is his life not yours and you have to look at the child in front of you rather than make your child fit a particular mould that you think it should fit into.

@AlwaysReadyNeverSteady I skimmed the posts before diving in yesterday ( not good 😬).
However, I did read your posts, and from what you stated, it honestly didn't sound like 'extensive' tutoring.
The reality is, everyone who has a child in grammar or aiming for grammar will either do some work with child or have a tutor. It doesn't matter whether it's for 6 months, 12 months or 24.
I appreciate some people (and I'd like to clarify, I certainly will not deny going though past papers with DS- because I had no idea what NVR and VR was)) will state no work is how the 11+ prep should be. Technically speaking, yes, in the print received it will always say no prep required-
Reality, your child is up against children that have most certainly been tutored.

Going back to your original post, do you think your DS is a perfectionist? I only ask, because he reacted similarly to how my DS reacts to positive feedback (older now so it's more humph or hmmm)- IMO it isn't burnout; it is just the way they react because they have a set goal/target and anything below isn't good enough. Any positive feedback when DS is revising for exams is never met with a cheer, just a sullen hmm or 'I don't know'.

I do agree, being told your child is being pressurised and not allowed to be a child was very unkind, considering you'd stated how he is happily partaking in his activities and hobbies; how this is his choice and knows he can stop when he wants if he wants. Yes, there are children who will be made to focus solely on 11+, but of course that's not what you're doing, so accusing you of that was and is out of order.

We too purchased a property further away from catchment of good non selective schools. Not because we wanted the challenge of trying to get in 😂 but because that is what we could afford. So I also empathise on that front.

Birmingham grammars are tough, I'm originally from Worcester, and obviously no one would even bother applying from that distance 😂 I was slightly envious of some kids I met at university who went to either the king Edward schools or the likes of sutton coldfiield/handsworth.

I've also seen your DS has been doing really well on NVR and VR, and that's brilliant. I think they're more challenging because the time allocated never seems to be enough.

And please don't take note of people questioning the type of teacher you are- not sure how people can draw conclusions from a few posts.

Your tutor may have mock tests in line, I think they give a clearer picture and hopefully will be a nice positive boost for your DS.
Wishing you both the best ☺️

@PreplexJ thank you for the info regarding test variations/difficulty levels. Im not in a grammar area, and don't have super selective schools around us, just the bog standard catchment and then if you're lucky enough out of catchment system. I do appreciate super selective, and those with 2 rounds will be a lot more work.

I do feel, I owe everyone an apology including OP- it appears my late night post was not great and the wording may have caused some upset

Even in London with limited asset? Oh I didn't realise the mean tested is so hard, from those private school website it seems to be quite generous.

"The preparation was straightforward: my daughter did 20-30 minutes of workbooks 3-4 mornings before school from the start of Y5, a few practice papers at home and two in-person mocks with a reputable local provider in the summer of Y5 (this was invaluable for exam experience). "

@LetItGoToRuin that is 10 months to 1 year consistent effort.

I’d say that even with a single income of a teacher, you are very unlikely to get a bursary in excess of 50%. That means you’re still looking at finding half of the fees.

If you start looking at independent schools, just be wary of getting too invested in the process and then disappointed if an offer is too small so it remains out if reach. It’s very common unless you are on an extremely low income. And of course the biggest bursaries are given to the exceptional children but still means tested. To get one where you’re paying no or barely any fees you need to have a very low income and to be extremely clever.

The bursary is certainly worth looking into. However I would also look carefully at what the 11+ exams for them involve before seriously raising with him as a possibility. Private 11+ will often include comprehension, creative writing, maths and maybe verbal and/or non verbal. Depending on the school the maths and comprehension may be multiple choice or longer written answers.

So two things here. First, at a minimum he would likely need to be able to do creative writing and potentially longer comp/maths answers. Clearly a big overlap between multiple choice and written in terms of content but is an interesting extra thing to practice. So are you/the tutor willing/able to expand his prep into these areas perhaps post grammar? Second, it drags it out until perhaps Christmas or January so you’d be at this for longer.

@AlwaysReadyNeverSteady I have read all of your posts, but not all of the replies to this thread. I'm a parent of a child at a Birmingham grammar - she took the test two years ago when it was CEM rather than GL, but it is not significantly different, and it is no harder to get a grammar school place now than it was then.

I just wanted to say that, although you are of course correct that there are some specific things that need to be covered for the Birmingham 11 plus test, there is not that much. The maths: a bit about ratio/proportion, perhaps a bit more algebra, and we also covered long division just in case it helped, but they don't have to be Y7-9 level in maths! It's just a myth - peddled by tutors. The codes etc: the GL test contains very specific things that can be taught easily with workbooks. The English/VR: if your child is an advanced reader with a wide vocabulary and very good inference skills, it's straightforward.

For the Birmingham test, a 1:1 tutor for 18 months, plus quite a tight regime of 'homework', is a lot more than should be necessary with a bright (not genius) child. I do think you may have been swept up by the playground gossip locally.

I have a number of friends that live more affluent areas than we do (such as Sutton Coldfield, Harborne) where it is the norm to hire a tutor. We live in a less affluent area and I simply went onto the 11 plus forum to understand a bit more of what would be required, and then bought workbooks. The preparation was straightforward: my daughter did 20-30 minutes of workbooks 3-4 mornings before school from the start of Y5, a few practice papers at home and two in-person mocks with a reputable local provider in the summer of Y5 (this was invaluable for exam experience). She got high scores in both papers (Birmingham and Walsall had separate tests in those days).

Some of those friends who spent a lot of money with tutors had to cope with stressed children that had been taught far more than they needed, and some were not successful, despite being bright children from much better primary schools than my daughter's.

I am not a teacher: just a parent. Preparing for the 11 plus in this area is not rocket science: online familiarisation materials and CGP workbooks and 10-minute tests will give you all the practice material you require, and as a teacher, you will no doubt find it very easy to support your child.

I would recommend ditching the tutor (however good and lovely she is!) buying some CGP 10-minute tests and signing him up for a couple of in-person mock tests with one of the bigger local providers. After the huge amount of work your DS has already done with the tutor, that will be more than enough, if he is suitable for grammar.

Best of luck!

OP, it’s a bit ironic that you say here you won’t ‘bite’.

TBH, you’ve done an awful lot of biting.

You raised a controversial topic on MN. You know people don’t read all of long threads and yet you keep getting cross with people.

You don’t have to justify yourself to anyone. You don’t have to explain your situation. Just take the useful advice that has been given and ignore other comments…..unless you’re wanting to feed the thread and want to be in an argument….some people on MN clearly do want to be.

This thing about feeling stressed one day and then feeling better the next….it’s normal. Both you and DS will have days in this process where you feel stressed and overwhelmed. You have to recognise it for what it is. If it happens occasionally it’s okay and normal. You make adjustments like you have done…and plod on. That’s fine and it’s not a major problem. Some people can’t distinguish guise between a couple or few days of feeling stressed in a 2 year orocess and being wracked with anxiety for the whole time. They are 2 quite different things and fortunately you do t sound like you’re in the latter camp.

People who have gone through 11+ before DO understand. We know the horrible tension of both feeling that it really really matters and also knowing it’s vital that the sense of this is minimised for the kids. We understand thr tension between feeling that another couple of hours work a week is needed and wanting to keep the balance so it’s not too much for the child. We know the tension between spitting little things in their work that we want to point out for improvement and talk about multiple times in a week and knowing we have to keep quiet and not let it become too much. We understand the worry that we are not doing enough for our child or doing too much and that other people’s witting and unwitting comments can make us feel terrible.

But you need to keep perspective. You made a plan 18 mi this ago and you’ve been going forward with it slowly and steadily. You will keep doing it with adjustments and by the time that exam comes, your DS will have been prepped and you have to trust he will do the best he can and beyond that you just don’t have control over it. You will be able to rest afterwards and I hope take comfort from a sense of having done what felt right and accepting the outcome that occurs. Try to get behind anger….and if you look back at this thread you do express a lot of anger. It doesn’t help your son or you. Do t be angry with other posters or children who are disruptive in schools or their parents or even the government if it is spoiling your life. You’re working with what’s available to you and that’s all you can do. And it will be over soon.

@RedFluffyPanda I've sent a private message to you

@RedFluffyPanda once again, I apologise, just saying that we didn't start 2 years prior does not mean I said we also did 3 months. Simply saying to another poster we are in the same boat- did not imply we did exactly what that poster said or did. For a lot of personal reasons, there was no way we could have started tutoring 2 years prior to exam even if we wanted.

I also used Facebook groups when nearer the time to see what I may have missed. And I was truly taken aback. I am talking about non stop work for kids. After school, weekends and holidays. I wish I was lying, but most of the people on the groups stated their child only had half an hour free time on a Sunday. Imagine grinding a child that much for 2 years? Surely even you wouldn't agree with that.

And as for the second comment, which i hope wasn't targeted at me, because that is the complete opposite of my dc. We are not a family that would ever encourage such behaviour. However, you will find low line bullying at times due to certain factors; for us the potential of being bullied is: 1) we aren't white, and 2) we are from the next town, a deprived town that is usually laughed at. So no, that won't be my child; chances are my child will be the target of 'snobbery'.

@SlowAndSteadyWinsTheRace

Well you mentioned that you have the same experience as YodDod, ingenious teacher.

On another note, my growing concern is that in grammar schools apart from some modest kids are also ending academically strong kids who also think that they are God's gift to this world.

@RedFluffyPanda I apologies, as it feels you have been offended by my post.
However, I am not the poster that mentioned 3 months, nor did I mention my 'high quality' teaching.
My 'last minute prep' might mean anything from 10 months to 6 months- I didn't mention a timeframe.
I'm not sure why you've zoned in on my post and attributed other comments to me.
As I said, I was not insensitive to OP, if you re read the whole thread, you will see my post is far from insensitive. OP has also mentioned how she's making changes, which includes doing less (I haven't told OP to do so).
Please don't feel attacked by my post- I understand the stress and pressure associated with the 11+. I am sure you and others are doing a fine job, I do, and I won't deny this, have trust issues with some tutors. The sorts that keep saying your child isn't making any improvements at all after months of sessions.

@SlowAndSteadyWinsTheRace

...Bragging about only 3 months preparation to the exam as compared to 12-18 months and how ingenious teacher you are in the thread of somebody who struggles?... It didn't sound kind and sensitive at all.

Just leave it to his tutor then. I get it's frustrating as I'm a now retired secondary teacher and my DS would never let me help/explain anything to.him but would accept every word his tutor said as gospel. Also I say this with.kindness but do you think you are working him too hard. Why not have a short break until school holidays start. Just let him do work with tutor and relax. You don't want burn out.

@RedFluffyPanda you've misunderstood my posts completely. I have not been insensitive to the OP. @AlwaysReadyNeverSteady has stated a fair few times how she's gone back to the drawing board- so to speak. She isn't tutoring her child until steam comes out of his ears anyway. Completely different scenarios.
I didn't say my child is a genius, if you happen to use the search bar, look up 11+ you will find many parents going through the process/have dc in grammar schools that have used a variety of methods, or none at all.
I also, have not stated those children that have received extensive tutoring (and I mean gruelling), are 'dumb'- awful way to describe a 10/11 year old. Neither would I use the word pass/fail when it comes to 11+.
Demoralising terms!

I'm not sure why you felt offended by my post, but we all have our own way of doing things. I can also assure you, I am definitely not the only one who had a more relaxed approach.

The tutor comment was tongue in cheek; 11+ tutors (again let me clarify- not all), but generally from all the adverts I've seen, charge an arm and leg.