11+ is going to ruin me

If your DS genuinely needs that level of tutoring and homework to pass the 11+ then grammar school is not the place for him. I mean this genuinely.

Any tutoring for 11+ really should just be time management and familiarisation of the types of questions as you might for any exam. The 11+ content is based on curriculum for that age and -depending on where you are - non verbal reasoning. If they are struggling before they get there then they will certainly struggle when they are actually there.

Odd comment. It’s still going because for certain children it works brilliantly. Look at the league tables. The results of certain super selective state grammars are outstanding - and they are free.

Counties will full grammar school systems get no better results than counties with similar demographics with full comprehensive systems.

I don't find it particularly impressive that super selective schools that only select the top 2% of the ability range, many of whom are tutored as well, get outstanding results. It would be more notable if they didn't.

Oh I agree with you, totally. Lots of unfairness in the current system.

But grammar schools have the unfairness built in, they are quite literally designed to segregate children academically. I fundamentally disagree that this is the correct approach. For me it represents a case of 'I'm alright Jack, I don't give a shit about anyone else's children' versus 'let's see if we can improve the educational opportunities for all'.

I’m also deeply sceptical about faith based entrance requirements.

Yes although with faith schools determined attendance at church will usually do the job.

Indies are a different issue.

The same argument can be extended to faith
/private schools etc. I guess few people will disagree on an absolute fair system do not exist. But current sysrem is especially not in favor for those who need education lift up most.

So are catchment areas that are based on parental income and ability to pay more for a house closer to a good school.

It disingenuous to pretend that all comps are created equal and rail against grammars.

I'm a positive person but sometimes I like a good moan...and I prefer the person around at the time to just let me moan and mumble sympathetic muttering rather than counter with positive affirmations. Might be the same for your son.

Just take a good break over the summer and reassess in September.

Your son sounds like a bright kid, he will do fine no matter where he lands.

Take it easy

Oh yes, there is clear evidence of the negative impact of a neighbouring grammar on non-selective schools. There is also no evidence of positive social mobility in grammar areas. There is a positive impact on outcomes for bright children who attend grammars but it is very small, and certainly not of a magnitude to outweigh the negative impact on the children attending the neighbouring schools.

Put it this way. There is a small but good-quality body of evidence to suggest that girls do better in single-sex schools. However by that same token there is also evidence that boys do slightly worse in single-sex environments. Would it be morally acceptable to make every school in England single-sex to the advantage of 51% of children, even if it means accepting a negative impact on the other 49%? If not, why is it acceptable to favour <30% of children in a grammar area, to the detriment of the remaining 70%?

According to the latest article from BBC and research paper.

"Grammars educate just 5% of secondary pupils in England - but their existence in a local area affects more than just the pupils who go there. For every grammar school pupil, roughly three more go to nearby non-selective schools.
There is evidence that these children do less well at GCSE level than those pupils in areas where there are no grammars, only comprehensives, a House of Commons library briefing paper says."

The issue is @LittleBearPad , that they're divisive. The vast majority of people in favour of grammar schools are the sort of people who assume their DCs will/would get into one.

The truth is, educational achievement is rarely linear – most DCs experience peaks and troughs at different ages (there is tons of pedagogical research to support this, and myriad reasons why it should be so). Are we really saying that someone who hasn't peaked at the age of 10 is not suited to an academic education thereafter? Because there is zero data to support this argument.
And as the old saying goes, no one is crying out for more Secondary Moderns…

TBH I don’t know how the system is still going in 2023 for those counties unlucky enough to still have it.

Odd comment. It’s still going because for certain children it works brilliantly. Look at the league tables. The results of certain super selective state grammars are outstanding - and they are free.

Complain about sharp-elbowed middle class parents and tutoring if you want but the schools provide excellent educations.

Nowhere is far better. I grew up in a non grammar school area and my DC’s have grown up in a grammar school area.
A proper actual comp (not found in grammar school areas except for possibly a few good faith schools) is so much better and fairer all round.
As a PP said, in what world is it fair that if you have money for a prep school your child is taught how to pass the 11+ from year 3/4? State schools are absolutely not allowed to teach the test or practice the test at all.
TBH I don’t know how the system is still going in 2023 for those counties unlucky enough to still have it.

Yes. You have them everywhere with proper commitment to technical and vocational training for children who fail the test or you have them nowhere. The current patchwork is a dreadful mess.

First of all, I'm about as far from being a fan of the grammar school system as it's possible to be. But if, and I cannot emphasis that IF enough, one were a fan of the principle as originally devised, one could make an argument that it would work more fairly if there were a lot more grammar schools. Then bright but underprivileged DCs who aren't currently facing a level playing field would at least be in with a shout of getting a place. But as @PreplexJ says above, the system as it currently exists is miles (and miles) away from adhering to that original intention.

I get it completely OP, like a lot of places we have two local comps; one outstanding, fantastic results, wide range of subjects, good behaviour, over subscribed and every parent who cares about education wants their kid there.

The other - requires improvement, awful behaviour, poor results, no 6th form, low choice of subjects at GCSE, has all the kids whose parents aren't much bothered about education.

I would have done anything to get DS into the first (where he fortunately did go and got all 9's and 8's at GCSE). It happened to be a comp but if it had been a grammar school I'd have been tutoring him day and night if needed! Do I think he'd have done as well at the other school - no chance - for 101 different reasons.

I think what is wrong about this is that private schools teach for the 11+ and state schools don't. How is that fair? Why not make the tests accessible for all kids without them having to be tutored in the bits they aren't taught at state school? It's a really out dated and unfair system and I'm grateful that we didn't have to go through it.

*If posters can't be bothered to read the full thread and actually listen to what I (and many other posters who understand the system) have said, then I can't be bothered to respond to your points.

It's really very lazy and borderline arrogant to comment on a post without reading the full background.*

I have just looked and the OP has posted 72 times so I think people can be forgiven for not reading it all.

Agree, sadly to sacrifice those underprivileged kids who are naturally bright as "grammar material" but without the support of resource or time. The system is just way too far away from its original intention.

Which is why the King Edward Birmingham grammars changed their admissions procedures a few years ago to howls of protest from certain families, introducing geographical catchments and increasing the pupil premium intake with quotas. Bright Birmingham children were losing out on places at their local grammar to children from miles away who had been hothoused for the 11+ from an early age. I know that in at least one Solihull prep school 11+ preparation is timetabled into the week from the beginning of Year Four, and most children will have additional private tuition on top of that.

The thing is though although some kids do get in to grammar who perhaps shouldn’t have via tutoring for years, the very bright kids are also being tutored. So the overall mark is just going to be higher / the questions more difficult.
when you are in this environment and know your child is in the top 10-20% of their class and everyone else is tutoring- it’s an impossible situation. You either do the same or risk badly letting your child down as you haven’t given them the same chance as everyone else! The child no matter how bright, doesn’t have the means to prepare themselves alone for this test and have the same Benifits as the other kids.
it’s an incredibly unfair system

Wow what a thread 😆

OP I’m only commenting on the “too positive” thing.

Is it possible he just needs to be able to vent his worries, say he’s scared about the 11+ and sick of the workload, get cross about having made mistakes in test papers, etc, without you being upbeat in response?

Maybe he feels (rightly or wrongly) that he can’t express negative feelings to you without you being perky and encouraging back? (Or asking if he wants to stop). He possibly just wants someone who will say “I know, it’s all a bit scary and hard work isn’t it, sorry love” rather than “you’re doing great, you will be fine!”

I may be barking up a gumtree…

It’s a hell of a process OP. I found DC was not keen on going through answers with me - much preferred going through them with their tutor. I’m so glad it’s over!

Your DS sounds like his nailing NVR and VR so talking to the tutor to focus less on these and more on maths sounds a plan.

Hang in there!

Hi OP, you're doing the best you can! I'm in the same boat - my DC will be sitting the 11 plus in September, but I'm not a single parent. I can't even imagine how you're doing it all!

Our tutor suggests 1 hour on weekdays and 2-3 hours on weekends and holidays! This is impossible for us to achieve as both me and DH have very stressful jobs and DC goes to after school clubs and won't be home till 6 pm. So doing anything after school was going to be impossible for us. Initially, we tried to fit everything during the weekends, which he obviously didn't like. We eventually ended up taking a 2 week break from all 11 plus and agreed that at the end of the 2 weeks, DC will decide whether or not they want to continue. Surprisingly, they wanted to go back to 11 plus. So we changed our schedule and now DC comes home 2 days after school, instead of going to childcare, and catches up on 11 plus on those days. We still do some over the weekend, but now we're no longer worried about playing catch-up over weekend. This has made a massive difference.

Maybe try and change your schedule and see it if makes a difference.

Have you checked what is the pass mark you need to get in? Also, since it's the GL test, it's all about practice. Since GL tests are based on a question bank, doing enough practice papers is key.

I would also recommend doing some online mock tests as these give you a good indication of where your DC stands in a bigger group. The grammar test score not only depends on how well you do, but how much better or worse others are. I can recommend MockMasters for online tests.

All the best and I really hope the situation improves.

It came up in my active thread so I didn't check the date 🤷‍♀️.