Page 4 | APPEAL TOMORROW!!

NatM70 · 18/05/2023 21:21

Hye000 · 18/05/2023 20:54

@NatM70 any news for you yet?? This week has dragged so bad. Still not heard anything, constantly checking my emails! It’s driving me insane. I’m coming up with mad theories in my head thinking that they are saving all the “No’s” until last… praying it comes tomorrow AM 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

Hiya @Hye000

Yes, I found out late this afternoon...WE WON!!!!!!
This has been the longest ten days of my life so I totally get that.
I was told it would be tomorrow I would hear, but they sent the email today.
Thank goodness, my nerves are wrecked 🤣
Haha, I get that, I did the same.
Hearing so late doesn't mean anything - all parents must find out at the same time. If you've won you won't find out before those who haven't.
I was doubting everything and worrying myself silly. Which was futile as the hearing had been and gone so there was nothing I could do...I guess I just like torturing myself.
When did they tell you that you could expect to hear by?
I waited ten very very very long days 🤣🙈

Original poster

Hye000 · 18/05/2023 20:54

@NatM70 any news for you yet?? This week has dragged so bad. Still not heard anything, constantly checking my emails! It’s driving me insane. I’m coming up with mad theories in my head thinking that they are saving all the “No’s” until last… praying it comes tomorrow AM 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

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NatM70 · 14/05/2023 22:28

Hye000 · 14/05/2023 21:54

Will do hun, I had the healthcare professional who wrote one of our support letters actually attend the Teams appeal hearing so I’m praying that they listened to her concerns even if they didn’t 100% believe mine 🙏🏽 will update here as soon as I know!! Just want to put my daughter out of her misery. Praying for you and your DC ❤️ xx

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That should be enough. They need a professional to state that they think school X is the right one for your child, so if that happened at the hearing it is as good as having it in the written appeal. You don't need a document if the professional stated that in person for you in front of the panel.
My experience was that they tried really hard for me, and asked questions that helped to enhance my appeal.
The PO didn't ask any questions at the individual hearing, just the panel.
Really got everything crossed for you 💖

Original poster

Hye000 · 14/05/2023 21:54

NatM70 · 14/05/2023 20:31

@Hye000
Thank you, I will let you know.
Really hope you win.
You have a document naming the school and that bears weight.
Please let my know too!

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Will do hun, I had the healthcare professional who wrote one of our support letters actually attend the Teams appeal hearing so I’m praying that they listened to her concerns even if they didn’t 100% believe mine 🙏🏽 will update here as soon as I know!! Just want to put my daughter out of her misery. Praying for you and your DC ❤️ xx

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NatM70 · 14/05/2023 20:31

Hye000 · 14/05/2023 20:13

Fingers crossed for you, please let me know. We find out this week coming also 🙏🏽 xx

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@Hye000
Thank you, I will let you know.
Really hope you win.
You have a document naming the school and that bears weight.
Please let my know too!

Original poster

Hye000 · 14/05/2023 20:13

NatM70 · 14/05/2023 15:01

@Hye000

I only had one document stating they believed school X was the best one for my child's needs.
It was from the school's psychotherapist and mental health lead.
Our GP have me a letter with diagnosis, but stated 'mum believes school X is better suited for...'
I knew the letter from the GP wasn't enough as even though they confirmed diagnosis, they put 'mum believes', and it has to be their opinion, not mine.
I had CAMHS referrals, which whilst they cannot recommend a certain school, they did write that my child needed a graduated plan at the very least, and an advanced transition to secondary school.
So really, I only had the one letter from the current school's psychotherapist, with supporting documents from other professionals making recommendations and saying 'mum believes...', but the panel assured me (I did check this with them) that I had provided enough evidence.
I'll find out this coming work.
Wishing you so much luck with yours.

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Fingers crossed for you, please let me know. We find out this week coming also 🙏🏽 xx

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NatM70 · 14/05/2023 15:01

Hye000 · 14/05/2023 09:09

I appreciate that but they didn’t say it was the strength of rationale or that the letter didn’t express the need of the school enough etc. even when I questioned her on the fact that it’s down to words, she didn’t elaborate and say, well it’s not just that it’s that the letter didn’t expressly say that that school could give your child xyz and there is no other schools that can etc. I think it’s a dangerous game to write children off down to the lack of detail in a letter from HCP’s who may have never wrote a letter like this before and have no idea what they are supposed to say or do. If this were any other criteria it wouldn’t be as detrimental as making decisions on behalf of child who are already at a disadvantage if they are needing to apply on medical and social grounds

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@Hye000

I only had one document stating they believed school X was the best one for my child's needs.
It was from the school's psychotherapist and mental health lead.
Our GP have me a letter with diagnosis, but stated 'mum believes school X is better suited for...'
I knew the letter from the GP wasn't enough as even though they confirmed diagnosis, they put 'mum believes', and it has to be their opinion, not mine.
I had CAMHS referrals, which whilst they cannot recommend a certain school, they did write that my child needed a graduated plan at the very least, and an advanced transition to secondary school.
So really, I only had the one letter from the current school's psychotherapist, with supporting documents from other professionals making recommendations and saying 'mum believes...', but the panel assured me (I did check this with them) that I had provided enough evidence.
I'll find out this coming work.
Wishing you so much luck with yours.

knotordinary · 14/05/2023 10:01

SuperSue77 · 14/05/2023 09:54

The school we are appealing for removed the exceptional social/medical criteria for the first time this year typically :-( And they had admitted about 3 children each year under that criteria previously.

Yes, many schools are removing it, because it takes so much time from staff who are already stretched to breaking point. When it works well it saves time, because it avoids cases going to appeal. But the vast majority of cases are too weak to meet the threshold, and then many of the rejections end up lodging appeals anyway.

SuperSue77 · 14/05/2023 09:54

The school we are appealing for removed the exceptional social/medical criteria for the first time this year typically :-( And they had admitted about 3 children each year under that criteria previously.

knotordinary · 14/05/2023 09:37

... just to add ... many schools don't have Exceptional Circumstances criteria. Where it exists, it is best to think of it as a "fast track" to avoiding an appeal for the strongest and best documented cases. It has a higher bar than the appeal process.

knotordinary · 14/05/2023 09:29

Hye000 · 14/05/2023 09:09

I appreciate that but they didn’t say it was the strength of rationale or that the letter didn’t express the need of the school enough etc. even when I questioned her on the fact that it’s down to words, she didn’t elaborate and say, well it’s not just that it’s that the letter didn’t expressly say that that school could give your child xyz and there is no other schools that can etc. I think it’s a dangerous game to write children off down to the lack of detail in a letter from HCP’s who may have never wrote a letter like this before and have no idea what they are supposed to say or do. If this were any other criteria it wouldn’t be as detrimental as making decisions on behalf of child who are already at a disadvantage if they are needing to apply on medical and social grounds

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The threshold for Exceptional Circumstances is very high, and schools have to apply it fairly and equally to all. It is not like an appeal, where the balance if arguments can be considered, and the panel can look into parents' eyes while they elaborate on their case and (sometimes) add crucial details that swing the decision. A school's Execeptional Circumstance panel only has your documents in front of them, nothing more, and must apply the policy to the letter. They can't "read between the lines" or embelish arguments on your behalf. Some rejections are painful because we know the case is probably stronger than it appears from the documents. We hope those parents will appeal, so they get their chance to ellaborate and be questioned about the circumstances, but it would be unethical for us to tell them that.

Original poster

Hye000 · 14/05/2023 09:09

knotordinary · 14/05/2023 07:16

The HCP needs to make it clear that school x is uniquely able to cater for your child's needs.

I'm a presenting officer. Lots of HCP letters say "Junior needs a small school, with good pastoral care, etc" without saying why our school is the only one capable of meeting those needs. Some do add a form of words along the lines of "therefore, in my opinion, School X is the best school for Junior", but that still doesn't necessarily meet our threshold, because nearby School Y is also small, undersubscribed, and has pastoral staff too. Yes, our School X may currently have a stronger team of pastoral staff than School Y, but that is no different to saying we have a stronger maths department than them, and certainly does not make our school uniquely capable of meeting Junior's pastoral needs.

We also get HCP letters which parrot whatever the parent has told them without applying their own knowledge or even their critical thinking skills, e.g. "School X is the best for Junior because it has a low noise environment." It doesn't - it's a school.

My point is that it is not the form of words that is important, but the strength of the rationale.

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I appreciate that but they didn’t say it was the strength of rationale or that the letter didn’t express the need of the school enough etc. even when I questioned her on the fact that it’s down to words, she didn’t elaborate and say, well it’s not just that it’s that the letter didn’t expressly say that that school could give your child xyz and there is no other schools that can etc. I think it’s a dangerous game to write children off down to the lack of detail in a letter from HCP’s who may have never wrote a letter like this before and have no idea what they are supposed to say or do. If this were any other criteria it wouldn’t be as detrimental as making decisions on behalf of child who are already at a disadvantage if they are needing to apply on medical and social grounds

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knotordinary · 14/05/2023 07:16

Hye000 · 12/05/2023 17:16

not long finished. Didn’t start on time as the presenting officer was late but got there in the end. I was so nervous and struggled to hold emotion at times but didn’t fall apart. So when I asked why she wasn’t taken into account for medical and social the presenting officer told me that there threshold was that the professional needs to write “school x is the only school for this child” (or something like that). So my child wasn’t out in the criteria down to the choice of words that her health professional used within the letter 😠 I didn’t express my annoyance or anger but I was absolutely mortified!!! So relieved for it to be over, just the wait now for the outcome. Praying for those still waiting and will be sure to update when we get an answer, thank you all for the knowledge, wisdom and kind words. I genuinely did the best I could for my daughter and I couldn’t have done it without you all so thank you from the bottom of my heart ❤️ xxx

The HCP needs to make it clear that school x is uniquely able to cater for your child's needs.

I'm a presenting officer. Lots of HCP letters say "Junior needs a small school, with good pastoral care, etc" without saying why our school is the only one capable of meeting those needs. Some do add a form of words along the lines of "therefore, in my opinion, School X is the best school for Junior", but that still doesn't necessarily meet our threshold, because nearby School Y is also small, undersubscribed, and has pastoral staff too. Yes, our School X may currently have a stronger team of pastoral staff than School Y, but that is no different to saying we have a stronger maths department than them, and certainly does not make our school uniquely capable of meeting Junior's pastoral needs.

We also get HCP letters which parrot whatever the parent has told them without applying their own knowledge or even their critical thinking skills, e.g. "School X is the best for Junior because it has a low noise environment." It doesn't - it's a school.

My point is that it is not the form of words that is important, but the strength of the rationale.

Original poster

Hye000 · 12/05/2023 19:11

And can I add. I only found this out today when I asked why she didn’t meet the criteria and how they decide. So I wasn’t aware until it was too late to even get her hcp to re write another letter!

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Original poster

Hye000 · 12/05/2023 19:09

CliffsofMohair · 12/05/2023 19:04

how can they reject in the criteria of ‘… doesnt contain xyz words’ when the criteria doesn’t explicitly say social, medical category is limited to those with the xyz wording. How does that comply with admissions code?

That was the point I tried to make that in the criteria it says you must have exception circumstances as you would be asking the LA to give you a place over someone who may live closer and I felt that that’s exactly what I did. I am disgusted really at how they can put a child’s health on the line due to a choice of wording!!!

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CliffsofMohair · 12/05/2023 19:04

how can they reject in the criteria of ‘… doesnt contain xyz words’ when the criteria doesn’t explicitly say social, medical category is limited to those with the xyz wording. How does that comply with admissions code?

Original poster

Hye000 · 12/05/2023 19:00

prh47bridge · 12/05/2023 18:57

That is not how the school should operate. If they are going to have a medical/social needs category, they need to assess applications properly, not reject them simply because the evidence does not include a particular form of words.

I think we were all shocked and I made it clear that I was disappointed that this all came down to words and that we wouldn’t be in this situation had they made one small contact with her hcp before throwing out her case

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prh47bridge · 12/05/2023 18:57

That is not how the school should operate. If they are going to have a medical/social needs category, they need to assess applications properly, not reject them simply because the evidence does not include a particular form of words.

Original poster

Hye000 · 12/05/2023 18:16

@LIZS It does now yes and her healthcare provider attending the meeting and made it clear that she hadn’t been through this process before and had she known she would have stated it more clearly. Unfortunately the way it is written in the admissions info it doesn’t mention this and unless a person came to MN before initially applying for a school, no one would know this. I think it’s a floored system that that’s how easily they can write someone off, just down to a choice of words. It’s wrong.

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LIZS · 12/05/2023 17:38

Unfortunately it is always the advice on here that a letter of support from a hcp needs to state that in their opinion this is the most appropriate school due to ... In theory any school can cater for most additional or health needs. Does your evidence now include this?

Original poster

Hye000 · 12/05/2023 17:16

not long finished. Didn’t start on time as the presenting officer was late but got there in the end. I was so nervous and struggled to hold emotion at times but didn’t fall apart. So when I asked why she wasn’t taken into account for medical and social the presenting officer told me that there threshold was that the professional needs to write “school x is the only school for this child” (or something like that). So my child wasn’t out in the criteria down to the choice of words that her health professional used within the letter 😠 I didn’t express my annoyance or anger but I was absolutely mortified!!! So relieved for it to be over, just the wait now for the outcome. Praying for those still waiting and will be sure to update when we get an answer, thank you all for the knowledge, wisdom and kind words. I genuinely did the best I could for my daughter and I couldn’t have done it without you all so thank you from the bottom of my heart ❤️ xxx

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NatM70 · 12/05/2023 16:06

Hye000 · 11/05/2023 22:06

We have our appeal tomorrow and I am absolutely scared to death, so worried and just petrified it’s not going to go our way. Two other families we know who have had there appeal already, aren’t convinced it was worth while and one family have been offered a place for a school that was on their list so I am guessing there appeal won’t be upheld if the panel have offered a place elsewhere. I’m worried my emotions are going to get in the way and also worried how to summarise my case when my time comes to speak 😩😭

@Hye000 hope it went well for you.

NatM70 · 12/05/2023 16:01

Good luck to everyone at their appeals.

I was scared silly before I went in and during Stage 1, but it was no where near as scary as I thought it would be.

The panel were amazing, and really wanted to know about my child and his likes and strengths.
We had a laugh, they totally put me at ease.
I had nothing to worry about at all as it turns out.
They even helped me - it was a if they actually want me to win this.

Go in, be respectful and thankful for their time.
They do this voluntarily, your kindness can go a long way.
Make sure you write your main bullet points - if you've sent in a very comprehensive apoeal like I did, you do not need to go through it all as the panel said they had read mine and would read it again.

If you need evidence, make sure you get it.
I had to fight and fight for mine, but I got it in time.

Remember to look at the school's case and ask questions to try and pick holes in their case - you need to do this at Stage 1, as you can't do this at Stage 2.
If you're too nervous, email your questions in and they'll be read out for you.
I did this, but also asked more on the day.
School couldn't answer some of my questions, but that was okay. I said thank you for every reply whether they could answer me or not.

I honestly did not think I'd be strong enough to get through this as I have some anxiety, but when it is your child, you forget that, and you fight for them.

If I can go in and do that, I promise you that you can too.
And it is not going to be as scary as you think.
The panel are human remember, and if anything like the panel I had, they tried so hard to help me.

I find out next week, and I do feel positive about this.

NatM70 · 12/05/2023 13:02

SuperSue77 · 11/05/2023 23:09

Thought it might be easier to copy and paste it here than link it, hope NatM70 doesn’t mind!

I had our appeal yesterday, there were over 20, so stage one was heard yesterday morning and all parents who wanted to attend that did so.
Really use this to ask your questions and try to pick holes in the school's case (respectfully! - A lot of parents yesterday were quite rude or aggressive, which really isn't on given the panel do this voluntarily. I can't see that going in their favour, as you meet the same panel at the individual meeting.
You won't be allowed to ask any more questions re school at your individual hearing, so write it all down and ask at this stage. Or you can email them in.
I did email some in, and they were read out by the Clerk for me, but I had a few more which I did ask myself.
School couldn't answer some of my questions, but that was okay.
The panel retired, but came back pretty quickly to say the school had demonstrated a good case, so stage two would go ahead.
I think this is what they have to do, else if they'd dismissed school's statement, everyone would then have automatically been given a place.

I was super nervous, I did not think I would be able to do it, especially as hubby was not able to go with me due to his work commitments (I do suffer a little anxiety, but I knew it was my one shot so I was determined to stay and fight for my child).
I then had a 3.5 hour wait (no point driving home to go back again, so I found a coffee shop and set about reading through my files to refresh my memory!).

I then had my individual hearing, and because my written appeal was so comprehensive, we just addressed the main points - I think the panel did a silent phew at that point!
The panel were a delight, and really tried to help me.
They asked about my child so they could see him as a real human being, they asked about his strengths and what he enjoys.
We went over the main points, and I felt I was given enough time to explain clearly.
They had read my appeal and said they would read it again.
I did apologise for the length of it, as they said it's the most comprehensive one they'd ever had 😅
They seemed to really listen to me, and took on board the issues my child has, and I questioned if they thought I had enough supporting evidence from professionals, which they stated I had.
I look back and wish there are certain things I had said, but as long as they do read my written appeal, it is all in there anyway.
We had a bit of a laugh, and the panel members gave me instances of their own children who had similar issues to my son, and with the right help in the right school, they have flourished.
That was very kind of them to say so, and it gives me some hope that I might just win the appeal.

I made sure to thank them for their time, and was respectful.
And for taking the time to read through what probably equates to something similar in length to 'War & Peace'.

It wasn't nearly as stressful as I thought it might be, so all that worry leading up to it wasn't necessary, but obviously I didn't know that.

As there are face to face hearings today, and Zoom meetings tomorrow, the panel won't be deciding until Friday, and I will know one week later if I've been successful or not.
However, they did say (and I double checked) that each appeal goes on merit alone and is not compared to any of the other appeals being heard, which is a comfort.

I don't mind at all.
We're all desperate for help right now!

prh47bridge · 12/05/2023 09:22

Good luck. Hope it goes well.