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APPEAL TOMORROW!!

113 replies

Hye000 · 11/05/2023 22:06

We have our appeal tomorrow and I am absolutely scared to death, so worried and just petrified it’s not going to go our way. Two other families we know who have had there appeal already, aren’t convinced it was worth while and one family have been offered a place for a school that was on their list so I am guessing there appeal won’t be upheld if the panel have offered a place elsewhere. I’m worried my emotions are going to get in the way and also worried how to summarise my case when my time comes to speak 😩😭

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 22/05/2023 16:36

Hye000 · 22/05/2023 14:51

I am also aware that the other parents from the school my DC attends, they had different panel members so if they were making decisions as they go along but then the rules changed for my appeal for example with different appeal panel. This will have an impact on the next panels decisions if some appeals have already been upheld. It’s an absolute circus!

Admission authorities are required to take all reasonable steps to ensure that all appeals for a particular school are heard by the same panel. It increasingly feels like this school is making it up as it goes along.

NatM70 · 22/05/2023 15:01

Hye000 · 22/05/2023 14:51

I am also aware that the other parents from the school my DC attends, they had different panel members so if they were making decisions as they go along but then the rules changed for my appeal for example with different appeal panel. This will have an impact on the next panels decisions if some appeals have already been upheld. It’s an absolute circus!

@Hye000
I've been waiting for your news.
I can't believe you're having to go through this.
It doesn't sound right at all.
As if it isn't stressful enough!

Hye000 · 22/05/2023 14:51

prh47bridge · 22/05/2023 13:37

This is crazy and implies a huge breach of the Appeals Code. Send the Appeals Officer an email setting out what she has just told you so that you've got it in writing. If you lose, you can use this to try and get a fresh hearing as it clearly implies that the panel were making decisions as they went along, which is not allowed. They should not have made any decisions until all appeals had been heard.

I am also aware that the other parents from the school my DC attends, they had different panel members so if they were making decisions as they go along but then the rules changed for my appeal for example with different appeal panel. This will have an impact on the next panels decisions if some appeals have already been upheld. It’s an absolute circus!

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 22/05/2023 13:37

This is crazy and implies a huge breach of the Appeals Code. Send the Appeals Officer an email setting out what she has just told you so that you've got it in writing. If you lose, you can use this to try and get a fresh hearing as it clearly implies that the panel were making decisions as they went along, which is not allowed. They should not have made any decisions until all appeals had been heard.

Hye000 · 22/05/2023 13:12

I just called the appeals officer and she told me that the decision were being sent out one at a time but they had so many calls and complaints to the council and school that the school stopped anymore being sent out until all hearings had been heard and now there is a back log of letters to be sent out because of this, so they are sending them out in order of when you had your appeal (we were one of the last, great!) I don’t know how much more of this I can take, we are flying out of the country this week and may not even get an answer before then.

OP posts:
PatriciaHolm · 22/05/2023 12:07

As prh says, the code says " The panel must communicate the decision of each appeal, including the reasons for that decision, in writing to the appellant, the admission authority and the local authority. The clerk or chair must sign the decision letter and send it to the parties as soon as possible after the hearing but not later than five school days, unless there is good reason."

Realistically, good practise means they should be sent together, but that's not stated in the code.

prh47bridge · 22/05/2023 11:58

There is nothing that specifically says all appeal letters must be sent at the same time, but they should all be sent by the fifth school day following the final hearing unless there is a good reason.

ElinoristhenewEnid · 22/05/2023 11:56

educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2023/03/07/secondary-school-offer-appeals-everything-you-need-to-know/

On this link it states that it may take longer than 5 school days for results if there are a lot of appeals.

Hye000 · 22/05/2023 11:33

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge I have been told by one of the other families appealing that they called LA today and they have said they will send results in order of appeal hearing dates and will be sent in the next 3/4days. Is this right? Is this allowed? I thought they all had to be sent at the same time! Today is the 5th school day so it’s the deadline?! I feel like they keep moving the goal posts

OP posts:
NeverDropYourMooncup · 21/05/2023 15:11

prh47bridge · 20/05/2023 23:13

Within the Admissions Code, there is nothing the head can do. However, it is not unknown for heads of schools that are their own admission authority to ignore the Admissions Code and admit a child that isn't at the head of the waiting list. The head definitely cannot reverse an appeal panel's decision to admit a child.

It's also not unknown for harassed heads to say 'Oh, I'll see what I can do' to get people off their case, knowing that in reality, there is no way on earth they're instructing the much put upon Admissions person to break Admissions Law and keep it secret so that Governors do not find out about it (as the Clerk/Governance Professional would also be obliged to report the lawbreaking, never mind the Governors themselves).

As it is, Governors on a ranking committee withdraw specifically when they have knowledge of a particular candidate - including the Headteacher - even when the rankings have been anonymised, just it case it could be interpreted as sitting on the committee without withdrawal, even when the list is anonymised, is dodgy/a conflict of interest - and whoever is actually responsible for handling the applications in school would be making it known if they are being pressured by anybody.

prh47bridge · 21/05/2023 08:46

knotordinary · 21/05/2023 07:51

Prh47bridge, it may not be "unknown" but it certainly isn't ethical, and it would require the school's admissions officer, and potentially governors (if the "exceptional circumstances" route was used) to conspire with the Head. So, please don't encourage anyone to assume that has happened! People who run schools are usually highly principled, as are people who sit on appeals panels.

I am not encouraging anyone to assume that is what happened. It is not only unethical, it is unlawful as it is a breach of the Admissions Code. I agree that most heads wouldn't do this, but I have come across cases where this has happened. And the question I was answering was whether there is anything the head can do.

knotordinary · 21/05/2023 07:51

prh47bridge · 20/05/2023 23:13

Within the Admissions Code, there is nothing the head can do. However, it is not unknown for heads of schools that are their own admission authority to ignore the Admissions Code and admit a child that isn't at the head of the waiting list. The head definitely cannot reverse an appeal panel's decision to admit a child.

Prh47bridge, it may not be "unknown" but it certainly isn't ethical, and it would require the school's admissions officer, and potentially governors (if the "exceptional circumstances" route was used) to conspire with the Head. So, please don't encourage anyone to assume that has happened! People who run schools are usually highly principled, as are people who sit on appeals panels.

prh47bridge · 20/05/2023 23:13

Hye000 · 20/05/2023 22:03

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge is it possible for the Headteacher to overturn one of the panel’s decisions after it has been made??

I have heard through the grapevine that one set of parents who have appealed, they know the headteacher of the appealed school and the child’s grandmother used to work at the school (retired last October). Apparently the Headteacher has assured the parents “he will do everything he can to get the child in”.

is there anything he can actually do? If he argues this child’s case would that cause all the appellants to be delayed in getting an answer or is there nothing he can realistically do?,

Within the Admissions Code, there is nothing the head can do. However, it is not unknown for heads of schools that are their own admission authority to ignore the Admissions Code and admit a child that isn't at the head of the waiting list. The head definitely cannot reverse an appeal panel's decision to admit a child.

Hye000 · 20/05/2023 22:50

knotordinary · 20/05/2023 22:47

You're probably overthinking it and over-reacting to rumours. Just chill, and assume its a workload issue, if only for your own peace of mind.

I am but I know the parents personally (they are from my DD year at school) and they have previously told me that the grandmother used to work at the appealed school etc. so I’m pretty sure it’s not just a rumour. I’m only conscious that if the Head is going to try and do anything, is it going to delay everyone’s? I’m going out of the country next week and don’t want to have this still hanging over our heads, want it to be over on Monday 😩

OP posts:
knotordinary · 20/05/2023 22:47

Hye000 · 20/05/2023 22:40

But they must think they have some sort of “get out clause” if the headteacher has made that comment. Maybe they are going to argue that the Nan was a employee at the time of the original application as that’s one of the criteria (think it’s parent but maybe they are going to try to use that?) I don’t know. I’m thinking it’s a bit of a coincidence I have heard this aswell as finding out the school have delayed the emails being sent out

You're probably overthinking it and over-reacting to rumours. Just chill, and assume its a workload issue, if only for your own peace of mind.

Hye000 · 20/05/2023 22:40

knotordinary · 20/05/2023 22:07

The school is not allowed to actively support the case of an appellant.

But they must think they have some sort of “get out clause” if the headteacher has made that comment. Maybe they are going to argue that the Nan was a employee at the time of the original application as that’s one of the criteria (think it’s parent but maybe they are going to try to use that?) I don’t know. I’m thinking it’s a bit of a coincidence I have heard this aswell as finding out the school have delayed the emails being sent out

OP posts:
knotordinary · 20/05/2023 22:07

The school is not allowed to actively support the case of an appellant.

Hye000 · 20/05/2023 22:03

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge is it possible for the Headteacher to overturn one of the panel’s decisions after it has been made??

I have heard through the grapevine that one set of parents who have appealed, they know the headteacher of the appealed school and the child’s grandmother used to work at the school (retired last October). Apparently the Headteacher has assured the parents “he will do everything he can to get the child in”.

is there anything he can actually do? If he argues this child’s case would that cause all the appellants to be delayed in getting an answer or is there nothing he can realistically do?,

OP posts:
PatriciaHolm · 20/05/2023 17:51

@NeverDropYourMooncup yes, I do agree the simplest answers are normally the best!

It's also very possible that whoever was spoken to at the LA has the wrong end of the stick completely ;-)

NeverDropYourMooncup · 20/05/2023 17:24

PatriciaHolm · 20/05/2023 11:53

With respect, @NeverDropYourMooncup , that's not the clerk's problem. It's up to the school to manage, and it seems they have already had a week where they have known the outcomes, and I'm not sure what they can be doing at this stage anyway given they can't actually do anything until the parents accept the offer (if they win). The clerk shouldn't be holding anything back just because the school is annoyed about the logistics for some reason.

The clerk will be sending all letters out at the same time anyway - that always happens with appeals, decisions are made at the end of all appeals. So that's not the reason either.

My LA send out very quick "yes or no" letters immediately and then follow up with the explanation a couple of weeks later, which I think is a good system! (for parents anyway)

All I can think of is either the judicial review as mentioned, or, possibly as @knotordinary said they have realised something about a panellist which has caused consternation - the person spoken to at the LA probably wouldn't know the detail at this point.

It's only a possible suggestion for a delay as an alternative to a school is seeking a judicial review or a panel member not acting in good faith and therefore calling into question the outcome of all appeals heard by the panel. I would always tend to assume that logistics are behind any delay before something more nefarious or catastrophic. unless it's Harris.

I am very well aware of the amount of work that goes into panels, so I know the due respect is meant as exactly that, but sometimes clerks do try to accommodate their schools (and vice versa when the clerks are snowed under) when there's a 'Do you think you could possibly hold off until Monday?' request. Unfortunately, sometimes, particularly in the case of LA clerking and their Admissions Team, there can be far too high a workload and some interesting explanations for delays have also been heard that are actually nothing to do with the panel members or the school. Although going by the number of 'Just to let you know, I'm going on annual leave' emails received this week, I think our LA is finally experiencing a brief lull in the secondary section, having worked their backsides off for all but one week over Easter since the rankings deadline in January.

I'd still look for a simpler workload explanation for a delay first, as it is the most likely reason in the vast majority of cases.

prh47bridge · 20/05/2023 14:41

That makes it tough because, as far as the Appeal Code is concerned, it is up to the school to ensure the panel is independent. The school may have a case against the LA, but I think they would have been in trouble if they'd tried to re-organise the hearing.

knotordinary · 20/05/2023 13:59

prh47bridge · 20/05/2023 13:14

Interesting. I've not come across that. However, there is a clear requirement for the panel to be independent and it is up to the admission authority to ensure their independence.

If the school is its own admission authority and finds that one of the panel is not independent from the appellants, my view is that it has to live with the consequences. However, if the school is not the admission authority, it has legitimate cause for complaint in this situation. It would then be up to the LA, as admission authority, to decide what to do. I suspect most would tell the school it is hard luck, as attempting to reorganise the appeal(s) concerned could lead to the parents complaining to the LGO. Indeed, if they only reorganise the appeal directly affected, those parents who lost could complain on the grounds that their hearing may have been unfairly prejudiced by this panel member. But I really can't say for certain what would happen.

The school was the admission authority but it was using the LA's appeal service.

prh47bridge · 20/05/2023 13:14

knotordinary · 20/05/2023 10:56

... I do wonder what would have happened if we've spotted the prejudicial interest in the time between the panel making their decision and it being delivered to the parent. Any thoughts on whether that might prompt a re-hearing with a different panel @prh47bridge ?

Interesting. I've not come across that. However, there is a clear requirement for the panel to be independent and it is up to the admission authority to ensure their independence.

If the school is its own admission authority and finds that one of the panel is not independent from the appellants, my view is that it has to live with the consequences. However, if the school is not the admission authority, it has legitimate cause for complaint in this situation. It would then be up to the LA, as admission authority, to decide what to do. I suspect most would tell the school it is hard luck, as attempting to reorganise the appeal(s) concerned could lead to the parents complaining to the LGO. Indeed, if they only reorganise the appeal directly affected, those parents who lost could complain on the grounds that their hearing may have been unfairly prejudiced by this panel member. But I really can't say for certain what would happen.

PatriciaHolm · 20/05/2023 11:53

With respect, @NeverDropYourMooncup , that's not the clerk's problem. It's up to the school to manage, and it seems they have already had a week where they have known the outcomes, and I'm not sure what they can be doing at this stage anyway given they can't actually do anything until the parents accept the offer (if they win). The clerk shouldn't be holding anything back just because the school is annoyed about the logistics for some reason.

The clerk will be sending all letters out at the same time anyway - that always happens with appeals, decisions are made at the end of all appeals. So that's not the reason either.

My LA send out very quick "yes or no" letters immediately and then follow up with the explanation a couple of weeks later, which I think is a good system! (for parents anyway)

All I can think of is either the judicial review as mentioned, or, possibly as @knotordinary said they have realised something about a panellist which has caused consternation - the person spoken to at the LA probably wouldn't know the detail at this point.

NatM70 · 20/05/2023 11:40

NeverDropYourMooncup · 20/05/2023 11:32

Sheer logistics. There's more than just one email involved to get everybody notified and children entered onto the various systems. Especially as the person at the school could well have many other things going on at the same time (could give a list of everything that happens right now that are statutory requirements but I'd be here all day typing it) if they even work fulltime in the first place. If one person gets the letter, they then call/email to ask for uniform, induction dates, term dates, etc, etc, which then holds up the processing of anybody else, who then calls/emails because they haven't heard yet.

It's a far more sensible/realistic thing to do all the background stuff first for everyone and then send it all out in one go.

Yes I understand.
I saw the length of my own decision letter, so I do see why there is such a wait for news.
However, OP was given a date by the LA, and school have pushed it back.
OP was given no valid reason for this.
I just find it strange.
As do a couple of the experts above 🤷‍♀️

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