Could any child get into SW London Grammars with tutoring?

Some children take to tutoring, well and others are resistant, which in our bitter experience doesn't correlate with ability.

Tutoring works, when it works. Kids who are dim but docile are getting in, and bright kids with "character" are losing out.

I wish schools would realise this. Perhaps they do, and it suits them.

your estimates seem just as sensible as mine. and of course there are many levels even within my categories, e.g. a kid from a very unsupportive household, who doesn't have books at home in the house, whose parents don't bother much with parents' evenings, etc would probably need to be more like top 0.5% to reach the passmark.

as you suggest, many kids on all parts of the raw ability spectrum simply won't sit the test.

My finger in the area number will be aound 5-10% for first 2 category, maybe 20-30% for the last category - but the last category may not take grammar test at all or not go to grammar if offered

Depends what you mean by "tutoring". There are many forms and degrees of this, ranging from from very light touch, parent-led, support to spending lots of very expensive time. And of course a private prep school offers way more support than a state primary.

IMO, for a 'super selective' like the Sutton Grammars the figures are roughly of the order of [I have plucked each and every one of these numbers out of nowhere, they're all indicative/made up]:

(1) Likely to reach the passmark having attended a state primary with no out-of-school academic support, parent or private tutor led - you're talking about roughly top 1 or 2 % in terms of raw ability/intellectual horsepower.
(2) Likely to reach the passmark with light to medium 'extracurricular' academic support [such as a fairly relaxed private prep not topped up at all at home OR pretty decent amounts of support at home, be that bought in or parent led - maybe something like the top 5-10% in terms of raw ability]
(3) Likely to reach the passmark with very heavy support [e.g. top notch prep; relaxed prep with modest home help; state primary with really serious amounts of time put in at home one way or another] maybe something like the top 20,30,40% in terms of raw ability, something like that?

All these primary schools saying don’t tutor and secondary schools saying natural abilities when those families putting effort get places. So I guess it would be great for GCSEs and A levels results since they already know those families will put in effort.

The most interesting question is

"Could any child get into SW London Grammars withOUT tutoring?"
😅

Yes it’s basically a way a lot of parents get their kids into selective schools without having to pay the fees of a private school.

I know because I have several friends who have all done it, some of their kids were not going to pass the entry without it. So they can then still claim their Guardian reading socialist credentials! 🙄 And these tutors were not cheap and it took months to get a pass.

It did get up my nose to be honest and I am finding it very hard to stomach the sheer fakery of it all. If you are going to pay a tutor - fine - but be honest this is making Grammar schools again only for those with money. The same with the catchment areas. Only those who an afford a house near the best ones and the tutors can get in.

There are children who get grammar school places with no tuition and also some that no amount of tuition will get them through. Your child has passed the exams and it sounds like sour grapes from some of the other parents.

I think it depends on the school, some are super selective and the exams are very difficult. I would say the vast majority have some form of tuition, whether that is at home or externally. All children, despite any natural ability would benefit from exam technique and being aware of the exam structure beforehand. However I do know of a couple children who managed to secure a place without any prior tuition so it is possible.

Me and my siblings all got into one of the top performing grammar schools in the country without any tutoring and came from a very working class background. I was absolutely baffled when I saw tutoring was a thing on MN. As children we WANTED to do well academically on our own merit and were never pushed by our parents with our studies. There were some children who failed the 11+ and going to a comprehensive suited them much better as it doesn't get much easier once a child starts at a grammar school if they don't have the academic ability.

My DD2, although not for sw london but I think a fairly selective grammar, got in with minimal compared to others tuition. This me me feel like a bit of a fraud given how much more time and money others put in not forgetting the extra effort the dc put in. I'm not saying she would have got into one of the sw london schools.

DD is at a Sutton grammar and everyone was tutored and loads who were didn’t get in

I suspect your friends are irked because (whether consciously or not) you are sending out the message that "my child is better than yours because my child got into the grammar school and yours didn't". Which is why one parent has said that their child might well have got in if they sat the exam.

Look at the second sentence in your OP
I'm very proud of her and she worked hard to pass the exams when none of her friends were sitting them

Would you have been less proud if some of her friends had sat the exams? Would she have worked less hard?

As others have rightly said, pretty much all children have some form of exam preparation- most have paid for tutoring (even if they claim they haven't) and some have worked with their kids to go through past papers.

Few children pass who have literally rocked up on the day. Exam technique needs to be taught to 10 Yr olds - and those who pass have the routine down usually, so they are able to finish the papers in the given time.

Those parents who have worked at home with their (bright) kids are usually incredibly smug when they say they weren't tutored. They were though, in a different way.

11+ brings out the most awful competitive nature of some parents.

I’m in a grammar area and many children are tutored and don’t get in.
But equally some children who aren’t tutored would have got in if they had been, and some of these move from non grammar to grammar for sixth form.
Natural ability plays a large part but as many have said, preparation helps.
I prepared both my 2 and one friend’s son in a relaxed way over a year and all got in. Could claim they weren’t tutored but of course they were!

People employ tutors to boost their child's academic performance, whether that be to bring them up to an average standard, get them through the 11+, increase their GCSE grades, etc. So you can say "Yes, we used a tutor for that very reason and it worked". There's nothing wrong with supporting your child's education if you can afford it.

Well.if course it's higher by tutoring or why on earth would you do it.? Sounds a lot of extra work to me, but she's got the reward of going to grammar school.

Some kids that get a place might not be tutored, I doubt the numbers are high. Loads and loads of kids that are tutored don't get in, competition for these school places is massive, congratulations to you daughter in gaining a place. Deep breath when you get the "my child could have got in if they took the test" comments 😉

No. Some kids who do havr tutoring still don't get high enough scores ime!

Well, the chances are that her score was higher as the result of the tutoring. Presumably that's why you paid for it?

That doesn't mean that she isn't "deserving" of a place as the vast majority of other kids who did the test will have been tutored too.

Too bad for the kids whose parents can't afford to tutor. The odds are stacked against those kids from the start.

I don't blame any parent for doing what it takes to support their child within the flawed system that we have got, but I do despair of the system itself.

I think just say 'yes' - you did employ a tutor and presumably you felt it was helpful. You don't have to justify or explain anything to randoms.

I got ds some tutoring at a couple of key points, particularly going into a university entrance exam of a kind he'd never seen before. Yes I'm lucky to be able to do that. Don't regret it and happy to say I did it. He still did all the work!

@GeorgeSpeaks understand your annoyance but I would not let it get to you. The reality is the vast majority need some kind of 'tutoring' to get in - as pp said that could be as simple as being taught some exam skills. But there is a difference between paid tutoring for years and some support from your parents in the months before the examinations. Anyway who cares really once your child gets a place. Your child is lucky to have the opportunity of a grammar school.

Quite frankly the grammar schools annoy me with their narrative that children don't need tutoring to get a place. As from what I have seen 99% of the children who get places have been tutored.

I remember that documentary. It was based in Kent which is a full grammar area. My heart broke for the girl 😕