Could any child get into SW London Grammars with tutoring?

Agree with @igglo on this:

Before my eldest got into a selective school, I struggled with the little information anyone was willing to give about the process and the opinions on their children's selective schools. That void of information created a lot of stress of not knowing what to do, when is enough, should we do more, should we do differently, is it worth it, so on and so on.

My child was at a regular state primary who did no prep for the state 11+ or for the private 11+, not that you could ever expect the latter of course. The head was borderline anti the kids applying to selective schools tbh, even the state grammar.

Knowing few people with older kids in the area and them reluctant to share much, it felt an uphill struggle to really understand the rules of the road. Yes you can look at sample papers when they exist but it felt like a big exercise to try and get a good understanding of what was going on, what they are looking for, how good is good enough etc. I do feel this was majorly advantageous to the local prep schools who (I now know) thoroughly understood the rules of the road and how to play the game, and to the detriment of those state educated. And if I felt like that as a committed, well educated parent tapping up my contact base to find acquaintances of acquaintances to speak to, how much harder is it for kids/parents without those advantages?

I like the part about saying as little as possible about your child's selective school. However I also understand how that creates even more myths about the process, and in highly competitive areas, the myths drive the hysteria.

Before my eldest got into a selective school, I struggled with the little information anyone was willing to give about the process and the opinions on their children's selective schools. That void of information created a lot of stress of not knowing what to do, when is enough, should we do more, should we do differently, is it worth it, so on and so on.

Everyone I know said 11+ with their first child was hell, despite how the child sailed through all with the offers in the end. The second one was a breeze. Because how little info anyone had in their first try.

Then looking back, it's similar to becoming parents for the first time, with all the unknowns and unknown unknowns, despite having books and videos and advice from many many parenst before, nothing could have prepared you for the real experience. At least you're able to tell it all afterwards, not like the 11+!!!

@WombatChocolate
“Switched-on parents counts for a huge amount. Switched-onnparents who understand the system and timescales and who plan ahead make a big difference. Those that buy the books and resources and research on-line and work with their kids, are often far more motivated than paid tutors will be. If you look at the ElevenPlusForum you’ll find lots of parents devoting hours to prepping who never pay a tutor. A switched on parent is also more likely to be able to find a well-regarded tutor and book them before they are booked-up. This isn’t comparable to using a group tutoring centre.”

So true.

I know parents who said their child didn’t have tutoring. However, what they meant was that they didn’t have paid tutoring. However, it turns out they did a lot of work at home, and the parents did work with them.

I think very few people would pass without tutoring, or at least being made familiar with what’s involved in the tests.

Just experienced the 11+ hell for the past year - not all children who are tutored pass at all, particularly this year when there were more children sitting than ever before for the same number of places (SW London).

Yes, exactly this or a parent that knows what they still need to cover, who then lets the dc know. My dd is in state school and end of year 5 we decided to do the 11+ and so we had her assessed by the tutor, who said she had some math she still needed to cover, as she had not learned it in school. Dc will not be able to understand the math without being told the formula or steps at least. It is the same for my ds. He is end of year 4 and I decided to get him to do some atom learning to make sure he covers the curriculum. And he already pretty much finished the curriculum on atom learning, but he did say a few things have not been covered yet and my dd looked at it and confirmed they start to teach that in year 5 or 6!

I've found the whole secondary school attitudes of various parents baffling to be honest. It brings out monsters in people for very different reasons. One of my friends kids passed the test (not 11+ but similar) and another parent went up to him and said "how on Earth did your child pass that" WTAF?!

Re the 11+ my view is it's old fashioned and generally out of sync with modern curriculum. That is why people need tutoring to pass it as it has things they will never have seen before. It's not necessarily about who is most academic it's about who can pass that test. You only have to read the boards on here to see the challenges this test poses and probably gives plenty of backing to those who want grammars abolished!

Anyway your DD did great and got the school you wanted, be proud and ignore stupid comments like that.

the standard has become so competitive that I would say only tiny proportion could get in without tutoring, everyone we know who got in had been tutored heavily. And as PP have said, many more who are tutored don’t get in.
Why are you bothered OP, you did tutor your daughter, it worked, happy days.

Your assumption here is that all students are being taught at same level. The reality is that In a decent state primary school the high achieving students will be supported to work at their level. 2 yrs ahead of average is not unusual so primary schools are certainly able to support and encourage.

It is more that the parents are!

I also got into a selective school with no prep whatsoever (in the 1980s) - scored the highest mark of my cohort, indeed. But I wouldn’t expect to be able to do that when everyone else had had years of intense tutoring from age 5, which is what some of the pushier parents do around here.

OP has both questions (is this an 11+ comprehension question?)

The question was not ‘do all children need tutoring to pass’, but ‘could any child pass with tutoring’, to which the answer is no. Tutoring can tweak a few marks and enable children to perform to the top of their ability, but that’s all. You cannot tutor a child to achieve above their ability. Obviously if they pass - with or without tutoring - then they are able enough to pass.

I think you get the point, most of these selective school care more about league table results than the kids itself.

To join a pro football club or not is just matter of choice. Majority of people chose local club and games for fun, exercise and enjoy.

But if people do choose to compete in that level, prepare and work hard is precondition, and yes there is luck too.

@PreplexJ
I'd expect that a wannabe footballer enjoys playing football and loves the game.

Newsflash - some ten-year-olds don't think being hothoused in non-verbal reasoning and year 9 maths is their idea of an idyllic childhood.

Just because the system is fucked up, we shouldn't have to fuck up our children

Of course lots of children won’t get in to superselectives, even with tutoring. Some of these schools have more than 10 applications per place.

I know children in Kent and Bucks which have some selective but not super selective schools, who were heavily tutored and who didn’t get in - so bit in the top 25-30%. In these areas, some will make it without any preparation, because a higher percentage pass and raw ability will get some in.

Switched-on parents counts for a huge amount. Switched-onnparents who understand the system and timescales and who plan ahead make a big difference. Those that buy the books and resources and research on-line and work with their kids, are often far more motivated than paid tutors will be. If you look at the ElevenPlusForum you’ll find lots of parents devoting hours to prepping who never pay a tutor. A switched on parent is also more likely to be able to find a well-regarded tutor and book them before they are booked-up. This isn’t comparable to using a group tutoring centre.

When other parents who didn’t opt into taking the exam tell you that their kid would have passed, just smile and nod and say ‘I expect you’re right’. It doesn’t matter does it….your child has got the grammar place and their child didn’t sit the exam and isn’t going. It’s like everything….people don’t like the thought that their child might not be getting something others have. Where effort is required, they don’t like the thought that either their parental effort or child’s effort has stopped them getting something.

Selective schools and children having placed to them always creates some kind of tension between parents. No-one likes the thought their kid is going to a lesser school. That’s not to say the alternatives are lesser, but people often have a perception that is the case. Everyone ends up defending their choices, whether it was to apply for selective education or not. It’s honestly not worth engaging with as it often causes bad feeling.

My advice, if your child is going to a selective school which is either state or independent, is to say nothing about it. If asked, say as little as possible. Commenting on the fact your DC worked really hard doesn’t help (other people perceive this is a comment saying their DC didn’t work hard) or saying you e chosen the school because it suits DC best doesn’t help (as people take that as a comment meaning an inferior school is for their inferior child) Say as little as possible. Always be positive about the other children and the schools they are going to. Never run down or be negative about any other schools.

And yes, most kids who get selective places have worked hard. But remmeber too, that lots work hard and don’t get places…so it isn’t simply a case of ‘deserving’ them due to hard work. Children who get the places are generally fortunate. They probably have worked hard, but they have also usually had. Itivated and switched-on parents who put them in for the exams and supported them, and naturally had the ability to make it possible. Many children are lacking some or all of those things which help a lot. It is an achievement to get a place. However, again, that sense of achievement which some parents or kids have, is best kept unmentioned amongst all but close friends or family. Again, people feel criticised or uncomfortable about the achievements of others and especially of the kids of others, when they or their kids haven’t had similar achievements. On one level, it’s all a bit annoying, but having some empathy and nodding and smiling, whilst just carrying on if often best. Justifying outcomes or choices is just not worth it.

Kind of silly anology: if high natural ability footballer doesn't do training practice in modern era, no matter how character he/she is, the professional clubs won't miss losing them out.

Ah no sorry, selective school on the south coast. I didn't realise that the London schools were a whole other level 😳

Is this selective school in SW London or North London? If so it is the first time I heard a case like this 😀

I very much doubt many children's pass with no sort of tutoring, either paid or by a parent. It's not just answering the questions, it's the speed of the exams. My sons both got highly selective grammar places, I'll be honest, I was surprised my youngest answered fast enough. He's very clever, but painfully slow normally.

My daughter (Y5) has been offered a place at a selective secondary school for Y7 entry and she didn't have any tutoring at all for the entrance test. It's not something that I would go around shouting about as it comes across as smug. But yes she is incredibly bright.

My son wasn't tutored he decided 2 months before he wanted to try so we looked at a couple of papers. I know many spent a lot of money and their children lost a lot of free time to it but then they found school hard too.

@ScrollingLeaves @Quartz2208 @TheBrokenCracker , agree with your views.

I think state schools teaching of the National Curriculum will be to a standard about 2 years below the potential ability of the most able. The exam is pitched to that more advanced standard. So even clever children at state schools would most likely need home help or tutoring to pass.

I think as well you can’t be unprepared for the format of the exam either - DD had light to medium support

For highly selective grammars that prioritise top score I just don’t see you can plonk a very bright but unprepared child into the 11+ and have any realistic expectation they will pass. My experience was that speed was of the essence and if you didn’t know what you were looking for you just couldn’t get through it fast enough or accurately enough to get the type of rank you needed.