Could any child get into SW London Grammars with tutoring?

@LittleBearPad agree with most of what you say here. However, I think parents who say my child might of got if they had sat the test etc. aren't saying that because they are insecure - they are saying that because they don't want you to judge their child as not being as bright or that they don't care enought about their education etc.

Sadly people are far to judgy about this kind of thing.

I get why people want their children to go to grammar schools etc. but it does suck - as whether intentionally or not you are labeling children as bright or not bright at 11! And we all know that there a number of factors why children don't get a higher enough score to get into grammars and often it is nothing to do with intelligence..

The thing that pisses me off is that when I tell people which school she has been allocated (I only mention when asked) they always ask if she's been tutored. One even went as far as saying she hadn't put her kid in for the exam but they would have passed if she had.

Ignore them. The majority of the children sitting Tiffin are tutored in some way which isn’t to negate their intelligence or effort. Exam technique is an important skill too and not an area of focus in state schools before year 6, which is too late for the Tiffin tests.

Particularly ignore the ‘well DC didn’t sit but would have passed if they had’ cobblers. It’s irrelevant. The parent made their choice, they should own it. Their comments make them sound insecure!

I passed 11+ in the 1980s and there are still people who make comments about the school. I think some people are obsessed with it. I've had various people say they got in but decided not to go. That's unlikely tbh.

We had no tutoring in the 1980s but 10 out of the 90 came from my primary so perhaps they did some preparation.

We found the ones from private school struggled the most and got the worst grades. Presumably they had been pushed to pass 11+.

Lessons were quite boring and we used to go quickly. Not much chance to ask questions. So I don't believe the style of teaching suits everyone. We also had limited choice of subjects.

I think people are being ridiculous to say their child would have passed. How can they know? Unfortunately people seem to get jealous.

There’s no simplistic answer to what Preps do or don’t do, and the level kids are working at.

Some Preps are selective at 4+ or 7+ entry and have more able cohorts (even then there is a range) and many are not selective and have a range of abilities. They will mostly be set or grouped for Eng and Maths and the kids will be working at different levels and the curriculum being covered at different speeds. Some elements of Eng or Maths might be covered at a higher level to allow what state schools call ‘greater depth’ whilst others might not have been.

Preps are not confined by the National Curriculum, so some Maths techniques they don’t feel are as useful might be ignored and some of the grammar aspects of Eng might not be covered if they are seen as purely being for state school SATs which they won’t be doing.

In things like languages, they have often taught well beyond where state schools will be, having subject specialists and more time devoted to languages. But these don’t help students pass 11+. The other thing is huge sports provision meaning Prep kids often dominate sports teams when they get to senior level....although state kids who’ve played club sport can often be as good. Again, not useful for 11+, but parents pay for Prep school for more than 11+ and for a different schooling experience.

What they can do and will do is some 11+ exam prep, which state schools won’t. That will include some coverage or revision of curriculum topics, but vitally VR and NVR for many entrance exams. Preps which send kids to many different senior schools which include state grammars and independents are often prepping kids for a variety of styles of entrance exams. It can mean the prep isn’t that focused on particular skills and rather generic - which is why lots of Prep kids are also tutored by private tutors or parents too.

My kids are out the other end of it all now. Friends of mine, who were interested, educated and motivated parents sent their kids to a mix of private and state junior schools, with a view to selective seniors. The kids has different primary experiences but all got places at selective state or independent seniors. The state primary kids has some tutoring or parents did the work with them. Some of the Prep kids also had tutoring or parental work and some Prep kids just did what the school covered. They were all reasonably bright and that with the fact their parents were switched on and supported them, meant they got the places and we’re fine at senior level.

My kids went to Prep. They had a lovely experience, with a lot of running in the woods, heaps of sport and away matches, 3 languages including Latin, traditional teaching of English and Maths and a variety of brilliant and mediocre teaching. They entered senior school in a strong position and confident and positive. They had some maths tutoring outside school and I did some VR and NVR on top of what school did. If they had gone to the state school instead and had some tutoring and my input, I think they would have got into the senior school too.

Preps usually provide a different experience but they aren’t magically able to do something wildly different academically. They are a luxury, without a doubt. Bright kids from state schools who have interested parents who keep focused on how they are doing and who will put the time/money into prepping them themselves or using decent tutors (not so convinced about study centres with group work) have got a great chance.

All preps I know of start doing 11+ mock exercise (atom iseb etc) during school time at yr5.

At state primary you are either playing or learning non 11+ related stuffs during school time. So for the state students that prepare for 11+ have to do those outside school hours. State school children are not necessary disadvantaged at intelligent level but rather on time allocation and commitment.

Information advantage on preps is more like on historical dataset and sample those school have (mainly for private selective schools) , so they have a better correlation on student level vs admmision chances, which can give better informed advice for application process to the fee paying parents. But such info advantage has been less and less important especially in London.

@SamPoodle123 Yes, I agree. I am sure preps have covered all the Y6 curriculum and children are well-prepared for exams as they will all be sitting them and will have the benefit of mocks and mock interviews etc. This is partly why I concentrated on exam prep rather than content for my daughter. I think just taking the exam is hard for a child coming from a state primary. Like you, after the end of the autumn term they were really taught no new content and were just doing SATs prep. I also advised my daughter not to bother with the homework as I did not feel it was helping her in any way and I didn't care about SATs. I didn't like the pressure either.

But prep school parents often say 'oh they are working a year/two years ahead'. I don't think this is true for all children even for the most academic preps. And I don't think (even if they are covering that curriculum) it can possibly be of any benefit to any but the very cleverest DC. And I'm not convinced it's helpful for the exams either, tbh. The exams cover, as you say, mainly up to the end of the Y6 curriculum. There might be questions based on the KS2 curriculum that are more complex but there is nothing at all from two whole years ahead. Any school doing that on their entrance exams is actively trying to exclude state school children and I don't believe any good school is doing that.

@GeorgeSpeaks Yes, SATs were easy for DD. But I don't think children need to be working above the Y6 level to get into very selective schools. I do think they need to be capable of doing so and I see that it's a difficult distinction to make. And a difficult call for a parent who hasn't got experience of the system. Like @HighRopes I only post about this because I do want parents to know that it might be possible for their children if that is what they want.

I wanted to add, that perhaps the way they prep for the 11+ is similar to how the state schools prep for the SATs in the last term. My dd's school had them do lots of mocks and the focus seemed to be all about the SATs from Jan year 6. They kept giving homework to prep for the SATs. My dd stopped doing the homework they gave, as the SATs were easier than 11+

No sorry, what I meant was they work up to a certain point and finish the curriculum for year 6, but they finish it early. So for example they finish the entire curriculum by lets say year 5. Then they just focus on 11+ prep until they take the exams. After that, it is just fun and review. They are not learning year 8 stuff in year 6. They just finish the curriculum early and are ahead of state schools in that way so they can prep for the 11+. By the end of year 6, state schools finish the curriculum. Although, from looking at the SATs mocks which covers the curriculum it is so much easier then the 11+

@SamPoodle123 You see, I hear that too but I'm not convinced it's completely true. I do think that the mocks etc must be really helpful. But I don't honestly believe children in prep school Y6 are mostly working at Y8 level. Certainly what DD was doing in Y8 in Maths was significantly harder and more complex than the Y6 curriculum. I don't know if this was just her school but I'd be surprised if there were whole schools full of children (some of whom are not going to get into the more selective schools) working at that level in Y6.

@GeorgeSpeaks Yes, I'm in SW London. DD got into Tiffin which I think is probably the hardest grammar near me. She also got into the other school she applied for (private).

I know for a fact she hadn't covered everything in the Y6 curriculum because she came out after the private exam and said 'what are rattios?' and I said 'do you not know what ratios are? Oh well, too late now!'

No idea what else she hadn't covered but it all seemed to work out OK in the end!

@BonjourCrisette from what I understand is private school is ahead of state schools, so they finish the curriculum early and then they begin their prep for 11+ with mocks etc. This is what I have heard from a few private school parents in our area. It might not be all the private schools, but from the ones I spoke to. I thought it was a year ahead, but some people say two years ahead.

I'm very interested in and slightly sceptical of the idea that the main advantage of prep schools is that they're all working two years ahead of the state school children. And also in the idea that you need to be working two years ahead to have a chance at these very selective schools.

DD got on fine at 11+ with what she had covered in her not at all high achieving state primary so I'm guessing nothing beyond the Y6 curriculum, and some tutoring - an hour a week in term time for about six months, much like the OP and aimed at speeding her up/exam technique as she'd got very comfortable in not having to work fast or try very hard at her state primary and had never taken any type of exam apart from Y2 SATs. She did get a bit of extension work and some fun days out doing Maths competitions etc at primary which were mainly just fun for her. I'm fairly sure she wasn't working two years ahead of the national curriculum, though she might have had the ability to do it if it had been offered.

We know children from prep schools who did not get into the schools that they preferred (most had guidance about where to apply). We know children who had a lot more tutoring who did not get into the schools they wanted (state primary, no guidance). We know children who had no tutoring who got into the schools they liked (some were advised by their preps not to apply as they had no chance). I'm not convinced prep schools know as much about this as they are thought to, though I do think that if your child is already in a selective school it may be easier to see where the child sits in the cohort of those applying to selective schools.

The highly selective schools don't want to only admit people who've been taught a lot of stuff. They want to admit people who are capable of thinking about a lot of stuff, at least the good ones do.

So to any parents reading this (perhaps years in the future) with a clever child at state primary, please don't assume your child has no chance. They might, if that is what you want for them and if that is what they want (they will probably have to put in a little bit of work, but it doesn't have to be excessive as some people seem to assume and you don't need to cover the next two years of the curriculum).

No not all prep schools does this. This creates stress and confusion for parents. Your friends were lucky that their preps did this for them. This is why some parents panic since they are unsure and want to find a secondary school that teaches their DC and not leave it to the parents like some primary preps.

Yes, exactly this.

So they did not guide you at all on which schools to apply? The prep schools in our area help guide the parents according to their academic progress in their school. So for example they have a meeting in year 4 to start the discussion or year 5. They will also say lets see where your dc is at closer to the time in regards to applying to additional schools. At least this is what I got when speaking to different parents that have dc in the schools in our area. I discussed with them after the whole 11+ ordeal.

Yes, I can relate to this. I was not sure if my dd was at the right level for certain schools. I really had no clue. Every time I mentioned the schools we were applying to parents would say how super academic they are and how impossible to get into. My dd is bright, but how am I supposed to know if she has a chance to get in. Our head was not useful at all (state school). What helped me was understanding the target mock scores for schools (from Atom). My dd ended up getting into all the schools we applied to.

But now, I am having the same thing with my ds! Except, all his exams are written, so I feel I cannot rely so much on Atom mock scores. But I guess they can help give me some indication.

I wish more parents would be more open about it. I prefer to just be open with everyone when they ask about our 11+ experience. It is true many will not share info. But at least I have a sister who managed to find some info from some mums with old dc and also from looking on mumsnet found some others who were more open :) If my sister did not convince me to get a tutor for our dd at the end of year 5 (who goes to state school), I am not sure she would have been able to cover the curriculum herself! I am not even sure what they have not covered tbh. For my ds, who is year 4, I have decided to go ahead and get a head start with some atom learning. I have to ask my dd when we get to some things that my ds does not know when they cover that (and it is usually in year 5 or year 6 she will tell me).

I can only speak to what I’ve heard in detail from parents from about 5 prep schools I know so I am sure mileage varies. But they got all the above and the curriculum was focussed in on the 11+ private school content. With most of the autumn term dedicated to doing practice papers daily. active prepping for interviews with external tutors in to do practice interviews etc. why? Because that is what people are paying them for and how their success as a purportedly academic prep school is judged.

My friends with DC in prep schools had meetings with the Head to discuss target schools and how realistic they were, they knew what CAT scores were and how their DC had done on them over the years, they were prompted by the school to make sure applications were done in good time and the applications were supported with references. Time off for exams was granted without any issue.

I‘m sure this isn’t true of all prep schools, but some definitely do it (and more).

I knew about these things from MN and lots of reading of school websites. No school advice, no CAT scores, no reference. Which was fine, for me, as I grew up in that system and knew where to start.

I’ve had a lot of conversations with parents who had no idea of any of this, and who asked me about it. I expect even more don’t know someone to ask, and I think it’s a shame that some DC are not applying by for selective schools because the whole process is so complicated and people are often unwilling to talk about it for various reasons.

Yes, our prep school did very, very little to help the 11+ process - it was all parent led and we had to sort our kids out ourselves and prepare them.

I'm really intrigued as to what information primary state school parents think prep school parents get about the 11+. There seems to be the impression that prep school parents are hand-held through the process and given loads of information and advice throughout. I sincerely wish that were the case, but my DD is in Y5 in a prep school and it definitely hasn't been so far for us.

I absolutely agree that prep school kids are at an advantage in terms of the curriculum as they tend to be working a couple of years ahead in a lot of cases. But in terms of the vagaries of this 11+ bonkers system (both independent and grammar), what levels of "intelligence" (aka insane levels of practice and prep) are needed in order to be successful and what each school is looking for in terms of process / exam type etc, in our case that's all been left entirely to parents to navigate themselves.

But @WombatChocolate has pretty much nailed this whole thing. At the end of the day, a kid with parents willing to invest time and money (whether prep schools or tutors) and really figure out this crazy arms race for themselves are going to be the ones at an advantage. And that probably includes everyone on MN forums who are spending time trying to figure this all out.

Not sure about the lack of access to 11+ info, agree on earlier poster the switch on parents can will always get the info and preparation in their way. The prep schools advantage on information etc has been dwindling in the past years in London for private selective school. And even had no advantage if talking about super selective grammar school in London.

However I feel reading more posts on mumsnet make one feeling the 11+ process more opaque. Especially a lot of parents trying to downplay the efforts that required 😶

Completely agree with TheBroken and Igloo. It’s as much (maybe even more) about access to information as it is about money. Except that money pays prep fees (and those give access to that information and advice on the 11+), of course.

The advice from Wombat is great on a personal level, and I follow it. But on here I’m a lot more open, as I really want parents with bright kids in state primaries to get the information they need to have a go at selective schools, if that’s what they feel is right for their DC.