Could any child get into SW London Grammars with tutoring?

@HighRopes

In my son's school, Y5, the NFER tests and other parts of curriculum are not at the same level as Sutton mock tests as the school tests and national tests are much much easier. Even the Bonds, CPG and other 11+ tests are more difficult than what they do at school in Y5. I even don't compare it with the level of tests provided by our tutor as these are targetted also at private schools.

The children talk about it to your children. And your children generally don't think it worth mentioning. So you only find out by accident (e.g. DD says that friend X is arriving late for their meetup as she has maths tutoring earlier).

Surely by secondary school stage you don't tend to talk to other parents that much anyway? And I imagine it's something that parents don't advertise for fear it suggests their children are less bright (as OP has done on this thread with her comment that tutoring didn't make her child's score artificially high).

@BonjourCrisette From the tutors, online forums. It is in person e.g. at a local school where they function on daily basis and that is where they are not open about it. Anonymously they absolutely talk. I have been on various 11+ forums. I heard that from people when I was selling load of 11+ books. I also met quite a few people who moved to the heart of catchment

"The discussion up-thread was that people (including me) felt able to be open on MN, but not irl. Which indicates that people on here are more likely to be telling the truth, as there’s no gain in lying."

Didnt mean up-spread specificly - MN is a online platform, it is easier to tell whatever it is and get away of it. Compared to irl it is easier to convey the information.

Of course it might be a platform for people openly telling the truth too I accept that (including me I hope) . But it is by no means that info in MN is more creditable than irl.

Specific for 11+ topic, the information is quite mosaic. Even some of the example some poster shared here or there in MN was real or might be representative, it is for parents gather pieces both online and irl in various ways to see the full picture.

@HighRopes Its an interesting point about Tiffin. I wonder if it means ‘only work they will have covered in school by the time of the exam’ or ‘work they will at some point cover in Y6’.

I don't know about other primaries, but essentially ours didn't really cover any new content past the end of the autumn term, during which the Tiffin tests took place. The spring term was all revision and past papers and endless tests (it was unbelievably dull). So I guess most of the Y6 curriculum had been looked at by then and they'd obviously covered the Y5 stuff already anyway.

Agree! So true. Why underplay all that effort?
I met a brilliant 9 years old pianist, whose English father said he plays a few minutes daily. Whilst the African mother jumped in and stated he is playing a few hours daily and is on diploma with music college junior programmes for gifted. He is good and works hard and she is happy and supportive of his effort. She stated that it is unfair to downplay his effort since other kids and parents would think a few minutes a day is all it takes.

The discussion up-thread was that people (including me) felt able to be open on MN, but not irl. Which indicates that people on here are more likely to be telling the truth, as there’s no gain in lying.

IRL they might either be trying to disadvantage or psych out direct competitors to their DC. Which would be odd behaviour, but some posters do think it happens, so I’m willing to accept that it probably does.

Its an interesting point about Tiffin. I wonder if it means ‘only work they will have covered in school by the time of the exam’ or ‘work they will at some point cover in Y6’. It makes a big difference to the need for extra tuition. And it also depends on primary schools all having covered the same things by the time of the exam. I know they follow the NC, but I got the impression they do things in different orders.

@BonjourCrisette "actually, though I don't really understand why anyone would do that"

Maybe some want to keep the advantage for themseld? Maybe they don't want to talk about it because afraid being judged? It was dicussed at length in this thread. Parents are not open about this process and only take them a lot of efforts and navigation to the information they need.

The headmaster at Tiffin was clear that the exam would only test Maths and English from the y5 curriculum. You wouldn’t need any y6 curriculum knowledge.

But of course most boys out of the however many (1500 ish) that sit for Tiffin will be tutored and most will not get in! We know loads of bright, tutored boys that did not get in.

Rarely parents openly talk about tutoring that their kids attend.

So how do you know it's happening then?

>I am somewhat sceptical of the idea that children at grammars/other selectives are all tutored to keep up, tbh, though I guess some of those who were pushed hard to get in may need some extra help at times. My daughter is at a selective school which is considered to be difficult to get into and I don't know of a single child who has been tutored in anything.

Rarely parents openly talk about tutoring that their kids attend.

@BonjourCrisette I don't know many kids haven't done enough prep by my standard get in some place they want to be (different standard for different place for sure). But I'm sure they exist.

The worst isn't to work hard and tell people you are not, actually, though I don't really understand why anyone would do that. The worst is not to bother to do your best. This entire thread is full of people whose children have done their best. You have a strange bee in your bonnet, @PreplexJ, about people whose children seemingly haven't done enough prep by your standards despite clearly having done enough to get to where they needed or wanted to be.

I bet those kids you know who need extra help when they are into the school their parents wanted for them are exactly those who were pushed too hard early on and ended up somewhere that maybe isn't the best fit. I don't know any like that but I am sure they exist.

Not every kids need tutored or extra external help to keep up in those most selective schools. But it is not a secret that a handful of students use external help (tutor) for their GCSE and subject etc - this is across all the superselective school I know of in London.

Work hard might not be a virtue in this country, but shouldn't be something that ashamed of.

The worst is work hard while telling others you are not.

Sometimes it isn't just working hard/preparation, either. There are plenty of children for whom eg attaining the expected standard in SATs or getting a grade 5 at GCSE represents a significant effort and focus on their part (and their parents too maybe).

I know children like this. They may have tried very hard to do better than perhaps was expected and those skills will stand them in good stead later on as will the parental support if that was part of what made the difference. They might just not be suited to a school or college or sixth form or other education where academic attainment is the focus and where the pace may be faster and the expectations higher (and they would almost certainly be fairly miserable in such a setting if tutored/prepared like crazy to scrape in).

I am somewhat sceptical of the idea that children at grammars/other selectives are all tutored to keep up, tbh, though I guess some of those who were pushed hard to get in may need some extra help at times. My daughter is at a selective school which is considered to be difficult to get into and I don't know of a single child who has been tutored in anything.

The education and effort is never lost. Even if they didn't get to grammar it doesn't mean that they will not do more brilliantly at state school than those in grammar. My boy's dad was a poor performer in primary school.The secondary school teacher stirred his interest in science. He became a scientists and builds complex microscopes. Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future....

But even with preparation they won’t all pass.

In Kent and Bucks which are full grammar areas, many children are tutored and don’t pass the 11+ in order to get a standard selective place, never-mind a score high enough for the super-selectives. Of course they can’t all pass.

The same is true for grammars elsewhere and especially for the super selective ones where over 10 apply per place. The vast majority have done preparation with tutors or parents….and the majority don’t get a place.

Absolutely agree that practice, repetition and learning stuff like timing can be improved on. However, quite simply, there are too many children in relation to the places, so of course all those who are prepared won’t get in.

When parents who didn’t put their kids in for the exam suggest theirs woukd have got in, they often have little idea of how competitive it is in some areas. It’s just a knee jerk reaction to your DC having got something theirs haven’t….many can’t bear to think theirs couldn’t have had it too. If their children ask about why they aren’t going to the selective school, the parent probably tells the child and themselves, that IF they had wanted to go for it, they would have got in. Just smile and nod. You have nothing to prove….your child has got their place. Any comment about how hard your child worked is counter-productive, as people take it as a criticism of themselves or their child.

You’ll probably get the same after GCSE. Some parents whose kids haven’t done so well, will suggest yours have done well because of the school they went to, or some other reason, but rarely that their child didn’t work so hard.

Determination and hard work surpasses the " brightness". Nothing comes out of nothing. Everything is a matter of attention and repetition. Memory is something that can be improved with excercise. IQ is a function that can be excercised and improved unless we talking about people and kids neurologically affected.

Absolutely agree, it may be that the kid was not tutored by tutor but by..their mum lol

Also, by looking at what is in a " Sutton mocks" there is no way the school curiculum will be sufficient.

And many of those who already are at grammars are tutored all along the way

My kids have all been through one of the top grammars in the country and they didn’t have any paid for tutoring for the exam but did do some practice papers at home. I was just too tight to pay!
I think unless a child has some kind of learning issue probably any could be tutored to pass the exam but the amount of tutoring needed would differ. The only barriers really are poverty and parent education level. If parents can’t afford tutors and are unable to help with prep themselves kids are unlikely to pass.
I also have had the experience of speaking to a parent who told me their child would have got into my kids school had they sat the exam. They were not one of the brightest kids and I doubted it but was happy not to burst the mums bubble.

Yes agree it works both ways to be fair which why op shouldn’t let it bother her..

Again that’s their impression and unlikely to be the case.

I guess it is - but is understandable - as they feel you are looking down your nose at them...

they are saying that because they don't want you to judge their child as not being as bright or that they don't care enought about their education etc.

But that’s their insecurity. They wouldn’t care otherwise.