Could any child get into SW London Grammars with tutoring?

Practice of walking into a school with hundreds of other exam sitters is also good and makes the ones that matter less scary.

The Sutton exams are good for this as so early.

I actually think explicitly teaching a child how to take an exam is one of the most useful things you can possibly do for them. Most people have to take them at some point and for most people the outcome will be important in one way or another, whether that is making sure you get passes in GCSE Maths and English or getting good A Level grades for further study.

The format of these exams is something your average state school child will not have seen. So I really think the % of those without any preparation who got in just be absolutely tiny.

We are on a grammar school area in the midlands and loads that I know tried out and most did not not get a high enough score. Some tutored some not. DS did and is doing well at the grammar.

I think there is an old fashioned attitude that children if children are tutored they will struggle at a selective school. Of course some will, but most, if parents are realistic about their ability, should be fine.

I also think the child's attitude comes into play. DS1 was prepared to put the extra work in without too much of a fuss. DS2 however! Whole different ballgame despite also being a clever child and toward the top of his class (and tutored!) We will see what will happen!

It's a pretty rubbish system and I do feel guilty to an extent for perpetrating it. But then I also want the best for DC.

Some very valid points in this thread - the 11+ is sat at age 10 and of course puts children into a stressful situation - in highly competitive areas it’s not surprising parents tutor - the standard of education in a grammar is much higher locally and compared to the price of local fee paying schools even a few £k spent tutoring over a year makes it a much cheaper option! Of course some children just pass the test- a mixture of good academic ability and luck possibly at play alongside practice papers. It is possible to find a lot of help online (or pay a few pounds to a local child nearby who had a tutor and passed)!

I would say it makes sense to tutor vs not tutoring?! Even an able dc would probably benefit long term from tutoring on the basis they'll still find things like exam technique handy even if everyone is sure they will pass. I think if 11+ didn't exist all this silliness would go away tbh.

It doesn't really matter if someone thinks a dc 'only' got in because of tutoring. They got in because they got in. If tutoring helped that's that. The list important thing is dc cope while they're at the school.
Having been to a grammar school I really wish they'd be abolished. It's an artificial segregation of dc based on one test at a very young age.

@Ladybowes I suggest you get Sutton mock tests. These are inspired ( alike questions) by past exams to Sutton Tiffins. Compare it with what your child will be doing/is doing in Y5. That will answer your question

my twins are at Grammar school, they attended a tutor for a few sessions to work on timing for the 11+ and to boost confidence, both very academically able and both achieved all grades 7-9 for all their gcses - I do know a friend started with the same tutors however dropped out when tutors advised parents they would struggle in a grammar. Another friend was extensively tutored (daily 1-2 hours after school) passed the 11+ then floundered in grammar and had to be removed. Equally I know a child who flew in year 6, top of the class, wasn’t tutored and in fact failed the 11+! The parents removed them to a fee paying school.
I think it’s a case of knowing your child and finding the right school for them!

I think most people do a certain amount of extra tutoring whether it's with an actual tutor, books or with a parent. It doesn't matter be really proud of her. All my kids went to highly selective schools with a once a week tutor helping them before the exams. However, if I'd felt I'd have to hire a tutor for my kids numerous times a week long term to get them into these schools I would have chosen different schools, I've seen the fallout from this when these kids can't keep up or the parents have to tutor these kids constantly for them to keep up - huge amounts of stress for everyone! Makes miserable kids and parents.

@Mangotime that is very kind of you. Somewhere earlier up the thread someone said that for Tiffin Boys the head teacher said only material up to the end of year 5 is needed to be successful in the entrance exam - is that your experience? Others seem to suggest that knowledge of year 6 maths and English is required - hence the need for tutors?

FTR, anyone reading this now or in the future, I am very happy to share info on getting my DS into Tiffin. It’s the only one we sat for so can’t comment on anything else.

In MN or irl, you will hear more successful stories from parents be more open, particularly naturally bright DCs who succeeded in the process in the post factum.

You will hear less parents talking openly about their bright DCs not being succeeded or the efforts required during the course. You probably mostly hear these stories from second hand. This is the nature of sample bias problem.

However every case is representative, yet every child is different, knowing the context and have enough samples from parents that can correlates to your DC situation is important - there are a few aspects to consider for the experience that shared when especially for 11+

London or not?
Grammr or private selective?
Superselctive?
Current year? Past years? Or 20 years ago?
How academic the child is it? Every child is bright, but you need to have some relative benchmark, how others with similar level did or does?

If I hear story about school students have no tutor at all, while other say the a lot of tutoring, I will do some more dd work for find out.

Best of luck to your DS. Like everyone on this thread has been saying, having supportive parents is at least half the battle so he is starting in a good place.

Yes, exactly this.

I did not go to school here, so I had no clue if dd would get in. I know she is bright, but everyone irl scared me about the schools saying how super academic they are and impossible to get in. Even though my dd did well, I still have the same feelings for my ds, not sure if he will get in. He is bright, but the boys schools seem even more difficult to get in!

I did exactly the same @SamPoodle123 - if people asked I told them (same now). There are hundreds and hundreds of children sitting these exams. The idea of deliberately disadvantaging/misinforming just one (or a few) of them in case they do better than your DC just does not sit right with me.

I do think that I had one advantage which was that I went to one of these schools which was the one DD was most interested in so I was very confident that DD was clever enough. Possibly that made me feel more relaxed about it all.

Yes, but I am open to others who are doing the 11+ in my ds year group now. And I was open before my dd took the exam with the ones I knew from private who also had dc taking the exams. One dc who was applying the same year as my dd I gave a lot of info to the mum because she was like me and not from here. I basically told her everything I learned, gave my tutor contacts etc.

My ds is in year 4 and I have had a couple parents ask me about the prep and for tutor details, which I have passed on no problem. My ds has not taken the exam yet, but he will in year 6.

@SamPoodle123

It is easy to be open post factum when your child succeeded. The attitudes of many are different before the exams.

Yes, this could be it too. I always thought that parents might not want to say irl because they do not want you to prep as much as them (your dc is competition). But it could be exactly like you say, they do not want to disclose it, in case their dc does not do as well as they wanted). Never actually thought about it like that.

I am always honest about it with whoever asks irl, even if they are in the same year group as my ds. I explain what my dd did and say even though she was successful, if I had known we would do 11+ earlier I would have started prep earlier (would not chance it waiting until last minute on purpose!).

IRL when people ask for my advice/experiences I am pretty open about it to be honest. When I was going through the process I only knew a small number of other parents doing the same IRL but we were all well aware of what the others were doing and we did discuss it. IME people seem keener to support one another than hide anything. I don't think I posted much, if at all, about it here as my main sources of support and information were real life friends and acquaintances.

The poster earlier who thought that parents might be trying to gain an advantage for their children by not being transparent about what kind of preparation they are doing strikes me as somewhat strange and definitely atypical from what I have seen.

@ igglo

So summing up would you say the following if some kind friend asked for advice when their DC is preparing for the 11+?

The "guarding" in the discussion here was not about keeping preparations a secret but about if they attend tutoring. Having said that, I observed that some parents don't want to talk about preparations. Probably to avoid conversations in case their kids didn't succeed

@redskylight
Ah I see now what you mean. Makes sense now.

Remember that primary children have brothers and sisters in secondary schools. I talk to 3 parents with older kids ( one just left to uni) in Sutton schools.
How it is in the secondary school when it comes to contact with other parents - I don't know but knowing my approach I will be in touch with many of them ;)

For me there is a distinction between helping someone in a lower year group in pointing to useful resources/what I have learnt, against dealing with parents in the same year who have made their choices already. I’ve talked several state school y5 parents through what I’ve gleaned.

For the latter there is no mileage in engaging in discussions about relative merits of schools - if they say “well my Dc would have passed if they had sat it” or “I don’t believe in selective education” or “all the kids who get in there are tutored and miserable” or whatever I smile and nod and do any eye rolling inside my head.

So summing up would you say the following if some kind friend asked for advice when their DC is preparing for the 11+?

"Well I don't know much about it but I heard you can get lots of advice from online forums such as MN and the elevenplusforums".

Sounds like a taboo subject not to be spoken irl!!

I imagine if one collects all the posts on here they could write a good selling book. They can even sell a new edition every year with flavours from the perennial SW London girls 11+ thread!!

The post I was responding to was about students who need tutoring "to keep up" once they got a place in the selective school. A PP said that no such tutoring happened at her DC's school. So by that point, the parents are secondary school parents.

The children talk about it to your children. And your children generally don't think it worth mentioning. So you only find out by accident (e.g. DD says that friend X is arriving late for their meetup as she has maths tutoring earlier).

I have actually asked DD following posters on other threads suggesting that tutoring throughout secondary was very widespread. So unless they are all keeping it a secret I honestly don't think it is happening at all in the schools I know about. Some children did have tutoring for the 11+, with varying levels of efficacy.

@redskylight

I must admit I a bit lost here in your thought process...This particular thread ia about getting to Grammar school. The 11+ exams, the exams to get to grammar are not in the secondary school but at the beginning of year 6. Hence the parents who apply on behalf of their kids are not secondary parents but still primary.