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Original poster

School has a very strong case

163 replies

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 16:10

As the title says… we have just received the school case against anymore pupils being admitted and it appears they have a strong case. Any tips or ideas of arguments to put forward to weaken their argument not to admit further…

to be honest, i appreciate the argument they have but I’m not asking them to admit anymore than one child so to me it’s hard to read it as being stronger than my argument for my child.

they were originally admitting 252 and have increased pan to 280. They say that they have 10 forms of 28 students and all classrooms are at full capacity, SEN areas and provisions are stretched and financially they are stretched etc etc.

can I argue that the receive extra funding for SEN pupils and that this should cover those children and the one 2 one teaching that is required?? I don’t know what else I can argue as I’m more conscious of the impact the my child if they were not to be admitted. They also argue about the narrow road that the school is on and that more people coming would add to health and safety, but my child would be walking so can I add that in to my speech, I don’t know.. feel like I’m clutching at straws!

any ideas please please please?

OP posts:
Inkpotlover · 02/05/2023 19:18

It's so hard to get a place on medical and social grounds that you'd have to prove this the only school you're in the catchment for that can accommodate your DC's condition. Are you able to do that?

TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 19:17

@prh47bridge
Are schools actually allowed to hold places for DC they don’t have or might never arrive? Many schools go over pan. Many appeals put them over pan!

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 19:08

I agree with @PatriciaHolm that this is a pretty standard case, so no, it is not a very strong case. If you attend a lot of appeals you will find that most schools put in an argument something like this. I've never written a case to refuse admission, but I've seen so many I could write one like this in my sleep.

The thing that stands out to me immediately is the statement at the foot of page 7 that, in addition to PAN, they have to allow for the admission of up to three hard-to-place pupils plus in-year admissions of EHCP children and children in care. That smacks of them holding back places for these children, so they can cope with going over PAN.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 19:02

TeenDivided · 02/05/2023 18:57

... and presumably arguing they were wrong not to use medical & social for your child?

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Yes, I feel so but depends if the panel see it that way or if they see it the way the LA did.

OP posts:
Sirzy · 02/05/2023 19:01

But did you have exceptional circumstances and did you provide evidence of that?

you seem to be avoiding answering what makes this school unique in the area for being able to meet her needs which is the crux of your argument

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 19:01

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 02/05/2023 18:56

Is the number of students in Y10 divisible by 28? If not, it may be worth asking how classes in this year group are organised. If they admit to going over 28 students in any of their classes, this may help strengthen your case? Possibly clutching at straws a bit though?

You could ask for class sizes and how the classrooms are designed for 28 students, maybe? Most secondary school class sizes are well over this (32+ is the norm in many schools now). Does this school have especially small rooms?

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There previous PAN was 252 which is sadly divisible to 9 classes of 28 🥴😓

but I could still ask how the classes are only able to take exactly 28

they state specifically that there science labs are only designed to fit 28students. Interesting at 28 as this is a new build school and very modern so I’m surprised that when building a new school it was designed to fit only 28 in class

OP posts:
Wolfiefan · 02/05/2023 19:01

In what way do her medical/social needs mean that this school is the right place to her? How would it be detrimental to her not to be awarded a place? (You need to show the detriment to her outweighs the stress of going over PAN for the school.)

TeenDivided · 02/05/2023 18:57

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:49

No, I meant that was the view from us applying on medical and social, when out into the criteria it was 0 on the list for medical and placed under the next criterion which was distance. So my question to them would be who or how was it decided and for what reason she was not placed in the criterion of M&S and Instead placed in distance

Show quote history

... and presumably arguing they were wrong not to use medical & social for your child?

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 02/05/2023 18:56

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:46

They have exactly 280 in all year except year 10 which is lower as this was before they increased to 280. The case says the classes are at full capacity and are designed for 28pupils so having extra pupils with be extremely detrimental. When you say it’s a pretty standard case, do you mean the schools argument is pretty standard in a sense that this is the argument that most schools give??

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Is the number of students in Y10 divisible by 28? If not, it may be worth asking how classes in this year group are organised. If they admit to going over 28 students in any of their classes, this may help strengthen your case? Possibly clutching at straws a bit though?

You could ask for class sizes and how the classrooms are designed for 28 students, maybe? Most secondary school class sizes are well over this (32+ is the norm in many schools now). Does this school have especially small rooms?

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:56

@Summerslimtime this is what I meant

School has a very strong case
OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:49

Summerslimtime · 02/05/2023 18:42

I don't think they are saying there are no medical issues, but that their school is not especially placed to deal with them; your daughter's needs can be met at other schools.

No, I meant that was the view from us applying on medical and social, when out into the criteria it was 0 on the list for medical and placed under the next criterion which was distance. So my question to them would be who or how was it decided and for what reason she was not placed in the criterion of M&S and Instead placed in distance

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:46

PatriciaHolm · 02/05/2023 18:22

The panel can't take this into consideration - it's hearsay, and may not happen if circumstances change. Panels have to assume appeals take the school over PAN.

In terms of the case, have they laid out room sizes? I would also ask what their current year sizes are in all years to see if they are coping with over PAN in any other year. It's a pretty standard case TBH.

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They have exactly 280 in all year except year 10 which is lower as this was before they increased to 280. The case says the classes are at full capacity and are designed for 28pupils so having extra pupils with be extremely detrimental. When you say it’s a pretty standard case, do you mean the schools argument is pretty standard in a sense that this is the argument that most schools give??

OP posts:
Summerslimtime · 02/05/2023 18:42

I don't think they are saying there are no medical issues, but that their school is not especially placed to deal with them; your daughter's needs can be met at other schools.

TeenDivided · 02/05/2023 18:39

Itsanotherhreatday · 02/05/2023 18:34

You appear intent on telling the school how to do their job.

What you need to focus on is why this school is more suitable to your child and their needs than any other school.

There are 2 parts to an appeal. Knocking the school's case and building up your own.
The OP is asking for advice on the former.

Spendonsend · 02/05/2023 18:38

I think you need to focus on your medical social grounds and why they havent considered your application evidence properly or why they decided it didnt apply.

Hugasauras · 02/05/2023 18:37

Instead of trying to weaken their argument, strengthen yours. Why this school? What unique care does it offer your DC? What is the impact on your DC if they have to attend elsewhere?

Itsanotherhreatday · 02/05/2023 18:34

You appear intent on telling the school how to do their job.

What you need to focus on is why this school is more suitable to your child and their needs than any other school.

redskylight · 02/05/2023 18:26

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:07

@PatriciaHolm is it worth raising that the school have said that non of the 280 places have been turned down but I am aware that from my daughters year alone there are at least 4 kids who will be attending independent schools that are definitely not going to require a place but those schools have not informed the local authority yet so they may not need to go over PAN to admit my child

Unless they don't have a waiting list (in which case your child would get one of those 4 places anyway), this doesn't help as they will just take another 4 children from the waiting list, so they will still be up to 280. Plus they may have children who weren't allocated originally/people moving into the area etc.

I'm not sure how your child walking to school negates the health and safety point. He would still be an extra body in a small area.

Does the school offer anything else you could use in your appeal? Why do you think it meets your child's social/medical needs best.

PatriciaHolm · 02/05/2023 18:22

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:07

@PatriciaHolm is it worth raising that the school have said that non of the 280 places have been turned down but I am aware that from my daughters year alone there are at least 4 kids who will be attending independent schools that are definitely not going to require a place but those schools have not informed the local authority yet so they may not need to go over PAN to admit my child

The panel can't take this into consideration - it's hearsay, and may not happen if circumstances change. Panels have to assume appeals take the school over PAN.

In terms of the case, have they laid out room sizes? I would also ask what their current year sizes are in all years to see if they are coping with over PAN in any other year. It's a pretty standard case TBH.

WheresTheForum · 02/05/2023 18:20

What is the reason you feel this school offers something the others can’t. If you can explain this it might help.

TeenDivided · 02/05/2023 18:16

Let's hope your medical & social needs are compelling

FawnFrenchieMum · 02/05/2023 18:12

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:07

@PatriciaHolm is it worth raising that the school have said that non of the 280 places have been turned down but I am aware that from my daughters year alone there are at least 4 kids who will be attending independent schools that are definitely not going to require a place but those schools have not informed the local authority yet so they may not need to go over PAN to admit my child

You can’t expect them to accept your word that some children are not taking up places. They will go down the waiting list as places are declined. It’s up to the parents to decline the place not the independent schools.

Sirzy · 02/05/2023 18:10

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:08

I thought all children with EHCP get extra funding??

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Nope and when they do it is rarely enough to cover the whole cost of the package needed.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:08

TeenDivided · 02/05/2023 18:07

can I argue that the receive extra funding for SEN pupils and that this should cover those children and the one 2 one teaching that is required??

I'm not convinced that would hold water. Some children have SEN and need extra support even if they don't have an EHCP. The ones that do have EHCPs may or may not actually come with extra funding.

I thought all children with EHCP get extra funding??

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 18:07

@PatriciaHolm is it worth raising that the school have said that non of the 280 places have been turned down but I am aware that from my daughters year alone there are at least 4 kids who will be attending independent schools that are definitely not going to require a place but those schools have not informed the local authority yet so they may not need to go over PAN to admit my child

OP posts:
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