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Original poster

School has a very strong case

163 replies

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 16:10

As the title says… we have just received the school case against anymore pupils being admitted and it appears they have a strong case. Any tips or ideas of arguments to put forward to weaken their argument not to admit further…

to be honest, i appreciate the argument they have but I’m not asking them to admit anymore than one child so to me it’s hard to read it as being stronger than my argument for my child.

they were originally admitting 252 and have increased pan to 280. They say that they have 10 forms of 28 students and all classrooms are at full capacity, SEN areas and provisions are stretched and financially they are stretched etc etc.

can I argue that the receive extra funding for SEN pupils and that this should cover those children and the one 2 one teaching that is required?? I don’t know what else I can argue as I’m more conscious of the impact the my child if they were not to be admitted. They also argue about the narrow road that the school is on and that more people coming would add to health and safety, but my child would be walking so can I add that in to my speech, I don’t know.. feel like I’m clutching at straws!

any ideas please please please?

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:07

CheeseMunchies · 02/05/2023 20:18

OP...I would ask for this thread to be removed or at least the pictures you attached to be removed. You have left the school name in them.

I have reported the pictures, I removed the city and most of the names but figured that there are multiple schools with the same name so it wouldn’t matter too much, I guess not.

OP posts:
Inkpotlover · 02/05/2023 21:07

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 20:50

thats not the stance I’m coming from… I’m trying to show that they have the ability to go over PAN if they can save spaces for hard to place pupils who will likely also be using the extra pastoral support that they are claiming is under extreme strain. So I’m trying to weaken the argument that they are so full that they can’t take possibly take anymore. I’m not trying to say that my child should take one of those particular spaces as If we won the appeal they would still save those spaces for those pupils even if they go over pan

Show quote history

Is that the right stance though? You might not be the only family appealing, so your grounds surely need to be specific to the needs of your child rather than a generalised argument? What if do you prove your point about PAN but the place then goes to another child appealing because they've listed specific needs?

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:04

TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 20:17

I looked at my old school. The Capacity is 1189. However their y7 admission number is 174. So 6x29x5 equals 870. The number on roll is 1311. 438 are in the 6th form. This leaves 873 so there are roughly 3 DC extra above PAN.

They have a PAN of 40 for the 6th form but there seems room to squeeze a few more in, probably via appeal at both y7-11 and 6th form. So try snd look at their stats for your preferred school. The Gov web site or an ofsted report can give clues. Is there any evidence they go over pan?

I have some info from 2022 that says the capacity is 1592 and the amount of pupils they have is 1661.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 20:58

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 02/05/2023 19:20

The school does sound badly designed from what they say, but I'm not sure there's much of an argument to be made about this. The school building is what it is, and it can't easily be changed. Changing science labs (however badly designed) usually isn't easy, so regardless of whether making them so small was a good decision, I'm not sure there's much mileage there. They also mention DT rooms etc, which again can be difficult to change.

It does sound like they run some classes above 28, because they mention smaller bottom sets- they contradict themselves a bit on this, I think, so it would be worth asking for clarity what is their largest current class size and how is this accommodated.

To me, their EAL and SEN percentages look quite high, but is the blacked out row averages for your LA? In which case they are still lower than average for the LA?

Have they ever gone over PAN- again the report suggests they have for ECHP/LAC students? Do you know the actual numbers of student in each year group, not just the PAN?

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The Blacked out bit is the city we live in so yes that our LA, so below average. According to the report they have 280 in all years. Last year one appeal was won yet that year still has 280.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 20:57

TeenDivided · 02/05/2023 19:26

No it isn't!
The OP didn't ask for advice on her case for admitting her child. She asked about how to challenge the school's case, which is a standard part of an appeal.

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Thank you very much! I haven’t gone into detail our circumstances because I have said it multiple times on here and it’s extremely long to keep writing out every time I ask for any advice!

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 20:53

Sirzy · 02/05/2023 19:01

But did you have exceptional circumstances and did you provide evidence of that?

you seem to be avoiding answering what makes this school unique in the area for being able to meet her needs which is the crux of your argument

I’m not avoiding the question, I’ve posted it on MN many of times, I’m not asking for opinions on my circumstances so I haven’t repeated myself in writing out our argument for the 100th time as it’s pretty long!!!

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 20:50

Inkpotlover · 02/05/2023 19:29

You can bring it up but I think you'd still have to prove why your child deserves to take one of those places if the school is dictated by the LEA to keep them free.

Show quote history

thats not the stance I’m coming from… I’m trying to show that they have the ability to go over PAN if they can save spaces for hard to place pupils who will likely also be using the extra pastoral support that they are claiming is under extreme strain. So I’m trying to weaken the argument that they are so full that they can’t take possibly take anymore. I’m not trying to say that my child should take one of those particular spaces as If we won the appeal they would still save those spaces for those pupils even if they go over pan

OP posts:
Wolfiefan · 02/05/2023 20:28

I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. You need to prove that the specific needs of your child can only be met at this school or that the disadvantage they would face in being refused a place is sufficient to merit the school being forced to take an extra child they’re saying they don’t have room for.

CheeseMunchies · 02/05/2023 20:18

OP...I would ask for this thread to be removed or at least the pictures you attached to be removed. You have left the school name in them.

TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 20:17

I looked at my old school. The Capacity is 1189. However their y7 admission number is 174. So 6x29x5 equals 870. The number on roll is 1311. 438 are in the 6th form. This leaves 873 so there are roughly 3 DC extra above PAN.

They have a PAN of 40 for the 6th form but there seems room to squeeze a few more in, probably via appeal at both y7-11 and 6th form. So try snd look at their stats for your preferred school. The Gov web site or an ofsted report can give clues. Is there any evidence they go over pan?

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 20:08

JM231 · 02/05/2023 19:45

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge slight diversion but to most of us new to this we would probably see this as a strong case. It’s reasurring that it is not but what if so, what would make it a strong case?

A case that says more than this! If, for example, it included the full net capacity calculation (which gives both maximum and minimum figures) and showed that they were well over the maximum capacity, that would be a strong case. They need to prove to the panel that they really are so full that they really couldn't possibly handle another pupil under any circumstances. Such cases are rare.

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 19:50

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 19:31

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge one of my DD healthcare providers have said they will attend the appeal with me. Do you think the panel will put questions to them and will they give her a chance to offer her opinion

They should allow her to offer her opinion. If they don't, you may be able to complain that you were prevented from putting your case properly if you lose the appeal. If she does offer her opinion, I would expect her to be questioned.

Qilin · 02/05/2023 19:49

but I am aware that from my daughters year alone there are at least 4 kids who will be attending independent schools that are definitely not going to require a place but those schools have not informed the local authority yet

It is the parents of those children who need to decline their children's places - if they actually did apply and get offered a place - not the schools.

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 19:48

Just to add, I agree with @PatriciaHolm. The statement should be ignored by the panel. Most cases I see don't include anything like this. But, if it sounds to the panel like they are holding places back, that would help.

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 19:46

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 19:27

Really appreciate your take on this as I actually saw this and thought that it forced a weakness on my argument not on there’s. Would you think this would be with me bringing up or asking about in anyway or do I hope that the panel see it??

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I would carefully probe that. I would ask them to clarify - do they mean that they expect 3 hard-to-place pupils so are keeping places for them? And how many places do they think will be taken by in-year EHCP children and children in care? Then, in my summing up (after both sides have presented their cases and the questioning is over, both sides are asked to sum up), I would point out that the school has said it can take X additional pupils as they are holding that many places for hard-to-place, etc.

PatriciaHolm · 02/05/2023 19:46

You can bring it up but I think you'd still have to prove why your child deserves to take one of those places if the school is dictated by the LEA to keep them free

They cannot keep places free for possible admissions of any sort. The schools point here, I think, is that they are saying they might be forced to take pupils under FAP - fair access protocol- or if named in an EHCP, both of which would take them over PAN.

Which they could, but realistically, that's the case for all schools and not relevant to the appeal as it might not happen - same as the OPs point about pupils dropping out. It doesn't help them and should be ignored by the panel.

JM231 · 02/05/2023 19:45

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge slight diversion but to most of us new to this we would probably see this as a strong case. It’s reasurring that it is not but what if so, what would make it a strong case?

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 19:43

TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 19:17

@prh47bridge
Are schools actually allowed to hold places for DC they don’t have or might never arrive? Many schools go over pan. Many appeals put them over pan!

The Admissions Code used to specifically prohibit this. The latest Admissions Code doesn't contain this prohibition but, in the same way the appeal panel can't take into account the possibility that pupils may leave, they can't take into account the possibility that pupils may join. If the school says it has to hold back places for 3 pupils arriving via the Fair Access Protocol, that means they can cope with 3 more pupils.

DurhamDales · 02/05/2023 19:33

OP did you mean to leave the name of the school visible? Looks like you’ve blacked it out in some places but not others

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 19:31

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge one of my DD healthcare providers have said they will attend the appeal with me. Do you think the panel will put questions to them and will they give her a chance to offer her opinion

OP posts:
Inkpotlover · 02/05/2023 19:29

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 19:27

Really appreciate your take on this as I actually saw this and thought that it forced a weakness on my argument not on there’s. Would you think this would be with me bringing up or asking about in anyway or do I hope that the panel see it??

Show quote history

You can bring it up but I think you'd still have to prove why your child deserves to take one of those places if the school is dictated by the LEA to keep them free.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 19:27

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 19:08

I agree with @PatriciaHolm that this is a pretty standard case, so no, it is not a very strong case. If you attend a lot of appeals you will find that most schools put in an argument something like this. I've never written a case to refuse admission, but I've seen so many I could write one like this in my sleep.

The thing that stands out to me immediately is the statement at the foot of page 7 that, in addition to PAN, they have to allow for the admission of up to three hard-to-place pupils plus in-year admissions of EHCP children and children in care. That smacks of them holding back places for these children, so they can cope with going over PAN.

Really appreciate your take on this as I actually saw this and thought that it forced a weakness on my argument not on there’s. Would you think this would be with me bringing up or asking about in anyway or do I hope that the panel see it??

OP posts:
TeenDivided · 02/05/2023 19:26

WheresTheForum · 02/05/2023 19:22

OP you haven’t given any good reason why your child needs to attend the school so this thread is pointless!

No it isn't!
The OP didn't ask for advice on her case for admitting her child. She asked about how to challenge the school's case, which is a standard part of an appeal.

WheresTheForum · 02/05/2023 19:22

OP you haven’t given any good reason why your child needs to attend the school so this thread is pointless!

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 02/05/2023 19:20

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 19:01

There previous PAN was 252 which is sadly divisible to 9 classes of 28 🥴😓

but I could still ask how the classes are only able to take exactly 28

they state specifically that there science labs are only designed to fit 28students. Interesting at 28 as this is a new build school and very modern so I’m surprised that when building a new school it was designed to fit only 28 in class

Show quote history

The school does sound badly designed from what they say, but I'm not sure there's much of an argument to be made about this. The school building is what it is, and it can't easily be changed. Changing science labs (however badly designed) usually isn't easy, so regardless of whether making them so small was a good decision, I'm not sure there's much mileage there. They also mention DT rooms etc, which again can be difficult to change.

It does sound like they run some classes above 28, because they mention smaller bottom sets- they contradict themselves a bit on this, I think, so it would be worth asking for clarity what is their largest current class size and how is this accommodated.

To me, their EAL and SEN percentages look quite high, but is the blacked out row averages for your LA? In which case they are still lower than average for the LA?

Have they ever gone over PAN- again the report suggests they have for ECHP/LAC students? Do you know the actual numbers of student in each year group, not just the PAN?

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