Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

School has a very strong case

163 replies

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 16:10

As the title says… we have just received the school case against anymore pupils being admitted and it appears they have a strong case. Any tips or ideas of arguments to put forward to weaken their argument not to admit further…

to be honest, i appreciate the argument they have but I’m not asking them to admit anymore than one child so to me it’s hard to read it as being stronger than my argument for my child.

they were originally admitting 252 and have increased pan to 280. They say that they have 10 forms of 28 students and all classrooms are at full capacity, SEN areas and provisions are stretched and financially they are stretched etc etc.

can I argue that the receive extra funding for SEN pupils and that this should cover those children and the one 2 one teaching that is required?? I don’t know what else I can argue as I’m more conscious of the impact the my child if they were not to be admitted. They also argue about the narrow road that the school is on and that more people coming would add to health and safety, but my child would be walking so can I add that in to my speech, I don’t know.. feel like I’m clutching at straws!

any ideas please please please?

OP posts:
SuperSue77 · 02/05/2023 21:59

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:51

Are you here to give me advice or make me feel bad for fighting for my child??

Show quote history

I’ve got everything crossed for you @Hye000 as a parent going through it myself I know how hard it is and it’s not something you take on lightly. I’m sure there’ll be parents who turn up on the day without much prep just because they want their children to go to that school, but from the amount of effort I see you putting into your case, I can tell how important this is to you and your child.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:58

SuperSue77 · 02/05/2023 21:55

A lot of us appealing are not doing so lightly or because we want to get our children into the “best” school. Many of us honestly fear the detriment of our children’s future. For reasons I don’t want to go into on this thread, I am concerned that my son will end up with emotional school avoidance if he doesn’t go to preferred school, which will impact his life and also the lives of his sisters who would suffer from all the issues for the household that go alongside that. It is also a lot of hard work to appeal and causes a good deal of anxiety, but we feel our children’s well-being depends on it.

Show quote history

Much love and appreciation. This thread has invited some toxic people who clearly couldn’t possibly understand that this isn’t an ‘easy’ option for us as parents. I have lived and breathed this appeal process and spend every waking minute thinking about it because I am so worried about the implications of the appeal being unsuccessful!

OP posts:
SuperSue77 · 02/05/2023 21:55

Nimbostratus100 · 02/05/2023 21:44

but if you put another child in, then that is 3 children sharing 2 places, and so disadvantaging 10% of the class every single lesson, every single day, every single term.... so every single pupil suffering one lesson in 10, so two or three times a week. And that is just table space, before you get to resources. I dont get why people dont see how detrimental it is to everyone to admit over pan - it is not victimless.

Show quote history

A lot of us appealing are not doing so lightly or because we want to get our children into the “best” school. Many of us honestly fear the detriment of our children’s future. For reasons I don’t want to go into on this thread, I am concerned that my son will end up with emotional school avoidance if he doesn’t go to preferred school, which will impact his life and also the lives of his sisters who would suffer from all the issues for the household that go alongside that. It is also a lot of hard work to appeal and causes a good deal of anxiety, but we feel our children’s well-being depends on it.

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 21:52

Nimbostratus100 · 02/05/2023 21:44

but if you put another child in, then that is 3 children sharing 2 places, and so disadvantaging 10% of the class every single lesson, every single day, every single term.... so every single pupil suffering one lesson in 10, so two or three times a week. And that is just table space, before you get to resources. I dont get why people dont see how detrimental it is to everyone to admit over pan - it is not victimless.

Show quote history

This is why an appeal panel will generally decide there is some prejudice to the school through admitting an additional pupil. They will then look at whether the prejudice to the pupil from not being admitted outweighs this.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:51

Nimbostratus100 · 02/05/2023 21:44

but if you put another child in, then that is 3 children sharing 2 places, and so disadvantaging 10% of the class every single lesson, every single day, every single term.... so every single pupil suffering one lesson in 10, so two or three times a week. And that is just table space, before you get to resources. I dont get why people dont see how detrimental it is to everyone to admit over pan - it is not victimless.

Show quote history

Are you here to give me advice or make me feel bad for fighting for my child??

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 21:51

Glorification · 02/05/2023 21:36

It’s a very strong case yaaaa

No, it isn't. Not at all. It is a pretty standard case.

TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 21:50

@Wolfiefan The Government advises that parents are seeking to establish that the reasons their DC should be admitted outweigh the school’s reasons for not admitting. Clearly the reasons to admit must be paramount but you also need to ask questions about the school’s decision. This is perfectly normal and why the Presenting Officer is present. To answer questions about the school’s submission.

Also if an appeal is won, the school must admit. Waiting list waits until after appeals are determined.

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 21:50

Wolfiefan · 02/05/2023 21:28

You’re really barking up the wrong tree. You can’t win this by “weakening their case”. You need to focus purely on the strength of yours. What is it about your child’s position that means this school is the only one they should go to.

So many people determinedly offering incorrect advice on this thread.

The panel has to decide whether OP's case outweighs the school's case. She should therefore present the strongest case she can (which she has discussed on another thread) as well as doing everything she can to weaken their case. An appellant weakening the school's case can make the difference between winning and losing.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:48

Lurea · 02/05/2023 21:45

To me it is weird that the capacity of the classes is only 28. I would ask what is the floor area of the classes as area guidelines says fir 30 students the class should be 55 Sqm

Very interesting point. I appreciate this as I was baffled that they had a new building with very modern open plan areas, they have classrooms that have walls that pull back like a folding door to make two rooms into one or vice versa so I find it weird that they made the rooms for 28pupils. I will ask during the appeal as I doubt I will get this info if I call and ask

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 21:48

Mousey23 · 02/05/2023 21:30

I think that the PAN is a red herring, as even if you win the argument and it is decided that they should go over PAN, they'll need to start at the top of the waiting list (probably a few hundred long) and start allocating the additional places that way. You are likely to put a lot of effort into making the case for some other children to get these places.

If you can show that your daughter should have been given a place, then they will be obliged to rectify this. They will be required to go over PAN to accommodate your daughter and deal with the consequences however they deal with it. So you don't need to argue about PAN at all.

The bad news - the medical criteria is an extreme situation. It is rarely about why your child must go to School X, it's more about why School Y and School Z can't meet their needs in the same way. Typical examples might be a partially sighted child who can't navigate 3 buses to get to school Y, or a wheelchair user that School Z can't accommodate on the ground floor, etc.

The good news - a class size of 28 does allow more to be squeezed in and may well be deliberate. Most schools of any size will lose a few appeals and have to deal with it. There is also significant shift in any admissions process, with kids having a back up place but go private, or moving out of the area. A handful just won't show up in September. If you're high on the waiting list, you're in with a chance anyway.

This is wrong. If OP can convince the appeal panel that the school can go over PAN, they will admit based on the strongest cases. They will not look at the waiting list. And OP does need to argue about PAN even if there has been a mistake. Whilst a mistake is a very strong case and in most cases will win an appeal, it is not guaranteed to do so. If the school really cannot handle any more pupils, you won't get in even if there has been a mistake.

Lurea · 02/05/2023 21:45

To me it is weird that the capacity of the classes is only 28. I would ask what is the floor area of the classes as area guidelines says fir 30 students the class should be 55 Sqm

Nimbostratus100 · 02/05/2023 21:44

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 17:52

According to the paperwork that’s the max capacity for the classrooms but originally it was lower so I don’t know

Show quote history

but if you put another child in, then that is 3 children sharing 2 places, and so disadvantaging 10% of the class every single lesson, every single day, every single term.... so every single pupil suffering one lesson in 10, so two or three times a week. And that is just table space, before you get to resources. I dont get why people dont see how detrimental it is to everyone to admit over pan - it is not victimless.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:40

Glorification · 02/05/2023 21:36

It’s a very strong case yaaaa

???

OP posts:
Glorification · 02/05/2023 21:36

It’s a very strong case yaaaa

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:33

SuperSue77 · 02/05/2023 21:29

OP already did this in an earlier thread and got lots of good advice from lots of the people advising on this one, so no one wants to go over it again. If you’re interested it’s here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4787048-in-preparation-for-appeal-panel-day

Show quote history

Thank you so much. I feel like I’m just repeating myself to different posters everytime, Ive been over my case a million times and have made it as strong as I can! I don’t need help with MY case, I need advice on any loop holes in the schools case!

OP posts:
Mousey23 · 02/05/2023 21:30

I think that the PAN is a red herring, as even if you win the argument and it is decided that they should go over PAN, they'll need to start at the top of the waiting list (probably a few hundred long) and start allocating the additional places that way. You are likely to put a lot of effort into making the case for some other children to get these places.

If you can show that your daughter should have been given a place, then they will be obliged to rectify this. They will be required to go over PAN to accommodate your daughter and deal with the consequences however they deal with it. So you don't need to argue about PAN at all.

The bad news - the medical criteria is an extreme situation. It is rarely about why your child must go to School X, it's more about why School Y and School Z can't meet their needs in the same way. Typical examples might be a partially sighted child who can't navigate 3 buses to get to school Y, or a wheelchair user that School Z can't accommodate on the ground floor, etc.

The good news - a class size of 28 does allow more to be squeezed in and may well be deliberate. Most schools of any size will lose a few appeals and have to deal with it. There is also significant shift in any admissions process, with kids having a back up place but go private, or moving out of the area. A handful just won't show up in September. If you're high on the waiting list, you're in with a chance anyway.

SuperSue77 · 02/05/2023 21:29

Wolfiefan · 02/05/2023 20:28

I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. You need to prove that the specific needs of your child can only be met at this school or that the disadvantage they would face in being refused a place is sufficient to merit the school being forced to take an extra child they’re saying they don’t have room for.

OP already did this in an earlier thread and got lots of good advice from lots of the people advising on this one, so no one wants to go over it again. If you’re interested it’s here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4787048-in-preparation-for-appeal-panel-day

In Preparation for Appeal Panel Day | Mumsnet

So… like the title states… im attempting to mentally prepare myself for the day of the appeal. Im just wondering (& hoping im not the only one). D...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4787048-in-preparation-for-appeal-panel-day

Wolfiefan · 02/05/2023 21:28

You’re really barking up the wrong tree. You can’t win this by “weakening their case”. You need to focus purely on the strength of yours. What is it about your child’s position that means this school is the only one they should go to.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:26

Itstarts · 02/05/2023 21:24

It doesn't work like that. You won't get anywhere trying to "weaken their case". You can only win by showing that the admission process was incorrectly administered or that it would be detrimental to your dd to go elsewhere. Legal detrimental and parental detrimental are very different.

Medical grounds are really only for cases like a wheelchair user applying for a specific school because it's single story.

Apparently that’s not not the case according to the experts on here. My child doesn’t have an EHCP but has a diagnosis of a disorder that is classed as a disability so I would assume that is Legal detriment not just me saying she would be

OP posts:
Itstarts · 02/05/2023 21:24

It doesn't work like that. You won't get anywhere trying to "weaken their case". You can only win by showing that the admission process was incorrectly administered or that it would be detrimental to your dd to go elsewhere. Legal detrimental and parental detrimental are very different.

Medical grounds are really only for cases like a wheelchair user applying for a specific school because it's single story.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:23

TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 21:09

You need to break down where the additional pupils are. My old school has raised PAN above capacity. Ask the more knowledgable people if this is worth pursuing. Are they already prejudicing the education of Dc by having an pan larger than capacity anyway? @PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge

When I worked it out.. not including sixth form, they have 289 spaces from the 1661 pupils from the info I have. So I’m wondering if there’s 289 in sixth form or if they are holding back some info somewhere

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 21:21

Inkpotlover · 02/05/2023 21:07

Is that the right stance though? You might not be the only family appealing, so your grounds surely need to be specific to the needs of your child rather than a generalised argument? What if do you prove your point about PAN but the place then goes to another child appealing because they've listed specific needs?

Show quote history

OP needs to be doing both things - weakening the school's case to refuse admission (which is what this thread is about) and putting a strong case for her child to be admitted (which she has discussed on another thread).

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:12

Inkpotlover · 02/05/2023 21:07

Is that the right stance though? You might not be the only family appealing, so your grounds surely need to be specific to the needs of your child rather than a generalised argument? What if do you prove your point about PAN but the place then goes to another child appealing because they've listed specific needs?

Show quote history

I have done all that argument in my written appeal, I am trying to find other things to weaken the schools case which will strengthen my own. If it’s a balance of scales, the weaker I make their argument the stronger my daughters will be, I have said everything about my daughters case that I can say in the initial written appeal, I’m trying to find other things

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:09

Wolfiefan · 02/05/2023 20:28

I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. You need to prove that the specific needs of your child can only be met at this school or that the disadvantage they would face in being refused a place is sufficient to merit the school being forced to take an extra child they’re saying they don’t have room for.

I have done this in my written appeal but I’m asking for advice on the schools case so I am able to probe them during the hearing in order to weaken their argument, in the hope of strengthening my own. You are making an unnecessary assumption

OP posts:
TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 21:09

You need to break down where the additional pupils are. My old school has raised PAN above capacity. Ask the more knowledgable people if this is worth pursuing. Are they already prejudicing the education of Dc by having an pan larger than capacity anyway? @PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge

Swipe left for the next trending thread