St Paul and King's

10-15 years ago, British white were the majority.

This thread is really interesting. I was wondering why there was a lack of British White at these schools and didn't know how to phrase my question without coming across as racist!

I agree, it’s madness. SP has a vast network of minibuses that come from across London, ferrying the boys in and out (at least till age 13 - not sure what happens after that).
So the boys are not exercising their sporting muscles :)), they are sitting in traffic, presumably on their phones/school ipads!!

Personally I have always wondered how so many of them are so good at music (some of the east Asian kids are absolutely exceptional), when so much of their day ia wasted like this, not sure when they fit the practice in! 😀

DS, grown up now, was very happy at KCS. We had the end of the Evans' reigns and the start to middle of Halls'.

The school had likely changed since our boy left 10 years ago. We lived in Putney when the choice was made.

It was made because firstly, the journey was slightly easier for ds and for me/my commute, secondly, we liked the feel of the school (and suspected dd would end up at school in Putney, Wimbledon or Surbiton - definitely not spgs) and thirdly because ds liked it best.

@veryworriedmum may I respectfully suggest that the most important person you listen to is your son.

Though SP offers partial boarding option from year 9.

It is unlikely that lots of upper class white British can get into the like of SP. The academic hurdle is too high. Hardly any in this group can get through. They go to Eton and Harrow. Firstly, they prefer boarding, and secondly the academic hurdle is much lower.

As to demographics, about 1/3 Asians (with a sizeable East Asians portion, like Westminster, and unlike many other top London schools or grammars), about half white British and the rest are mainly Europeans.

Agreed, sps is not a school for upper-class boys, upper-class boys, go to boarding schools – Eton, Harrow, Wellington, Milton Abbey, Millfield, depending how academic they are. Upper-middle-class Brits with a lot of money, but the vast majority of parents are international and often super rich (exactly the same as every private London day school nothing specific to sps)

"a lot in North London (St John's Wood etc)"

Commute from Nw8 to Barnes will take over an hour on a good London morning work day. I'm sure a lot of sporty SP boys but that is a fairly long trekking.

@CocoC thanks, your description probably match some of my observations.

And probably not upper class, middle upper is a better description.

Not sure I completely understand the question, but the families at SP are :

1. Asian origin (at least half the class if not 3/4 are either south east Asian - this is the majority - or Asian origin).
2. 'White mix' (Germans, Russians, Americans - and usually parents are 2 different nationalities, eg Italian-Russian, or German-American or Swiss-British). Literally only about 3 children per class are 100% white British, and they are not really upper class, more high achieving professionals (parents are barristers or partners in law firms or investment bankers basically).

Where they live: South West London (Barnes Putney Richmond Chiswick Wimbledon etc), but a lot in Holland Park/Kensington/Chelsea, and also a lot in North London (St John's Wood etc).

It is possible especially for humanities subjects especially for private schools. In general boys are more likely to take up STEM subjects which has to compete with a large group of high performing state grammars and Sixth forms which are getting more competitive every year.

For girls, it is the humanities subjects (MFL Classics or even Theology) that traditionally still have taught advantage in private sectors, and proportionally less competition with state sector schools. And league table results, if behind the scene look at details will tell you the story.

Not sure how true it is but a lot of parents seems to say that Westminster and kings A level and university destination are uplifted as girls come in sixth form at both schools.

"agree a lot of Wimbledon parents seem to come to SP despite living next door to Kings"

I am interesred in what areas in London will exposed more to such private school pecking order bubble in general?

I think a lot of SW London Preps does, and to some extend North /NW London too but probably less so. Also inside the circle of Asian (esp East Asian) and upper class white parents.

There is a St Paul school in new Hampshire, also an "elite/prestigious" private school.

My DS is at SP and I can't quite work out the SP vs Kings thing myself! Definitely agree a lot of Wimbledon parents seem to come to SP despite living next door to Kings. However, everyone at Kings seems to love it and be very happy with their choice. Interestingly, I have noticed a trend for several families with 2 boys (in both these cases the parents live near Wimbledon), who put the first son in SP but are putting the second son in Kings (in one case even moving him from SP. The reason given is that Kings apparently is 'a bit softer' in terms of environment for the children, and academically whilst very strong, the kids are not quite so exceptional. (There are exams at the end of every year from age about 9, and it's not much fun for children who are academically strong to find themselves 'below the year average' on pretty much all subjects.... and this happens to many). I also think SP is more focused on the sporting side, so this may be a factor.
My son is very happy there but we are very local. I certainly wouldn't drive across London for this - some families come from Dulwich and the likes which I personally think is madness. Pick a good school that is CLOSE to where you live, it will make a huge difference to your child's life (they will need to be going there 6 days a week with all the sports fixtures!) - and won't make any difference to the outcome. As others have said, the universities now are more likely to discriminate AGAINST these candidates (50% of SP now going to US universities as they can't get into Oxbridge now, however academically deserving they are....)... and most top firms see the CVs blind, with no indication of the school. I think the brand name has value in Asia... but not in the UK any more, and in Europe no-one has ever heard of these schools, it's all about the University (I can't comment on the US, I don't know about them).

This is remarkable!

Interesting to read this and hadn't realised how few boys are admitted for Y7 entry!

My DS was offered a place in the first 11+ (Y7 entry) round. He was at an independent, not prep, school with both junior/senior schools). We reluctantly turned it down as DS didn't want to travel for 1H and preferred a school closer to home and where he would make local friends.

Honestly, very few people in the UK, and almost no-one outside the UK, have heard of either. The situation isn't nearly comparable to Oxbridge vs the rest in university terms. Even amongst people who've heard of both, I should think that many would name at least one other school if asked to think of a 'top two'.

@veryworriedmum OP: if you are targeting these schools, you need to understand that for both Westminster and SP, they only admit some 30 boys in year 7, as the main entry point is year 9 (some 70-80 boys). The 11+ entry for both is mainly for state school boys. Only a few prep school boys are admitted at this entry point and they are mostly preps that end in year 6, who I presume need to perform very well. Boys from prep schools that end in year 8 were rarely admitted at this point (and SP explicitly mentions on the website that these boys are strongly recommended to apply for 13+), and presumably, they need to perform extremely well to cross this hurdle. If your prep ends in year 8, I also suggest you apply 13+ (as from boys I know, the success rate for prep school boys is much higher at 13+).

For King's, it admits 60 in year 7 and 30 in year 9. But then fewer apply in year 9 and so I guess the odd is similar. If you want to leave the prep after year 6, you can try 11+ for King's.

This!

Hi OP. British schools are a minefield, aren't they, but glad your DS has settled and is predicted to do so well!

My DS got a place at Westminster but we turned it down as we wanted something closer (and he's at neither of the other schools mentioned). He passed super selective grammar schools and had a couple of scholarships from other well-regarded indies but, in the end, we felt it was best to be close to the school, for friendships but also because we feel that he will probably do OK in any school (hopefully!).

If it helps, I wonder whether the reason Westminster is seen as 'the top' school (and it's all subjective to an extent) is that it was always the school that produced not only the most Oxbridge acceptances but also they have something called 'the royal dissent'. I.e. they are (supposedly) meant to follow the lead of the boys and so do not stay strictly to the curriculum but venture where the questions of their inquisitive boys take them so, in a sense, is probably more similar to a university environment or, indeed, the system at Ox/Cambs.

If it helps, lots of DS's mates applied to Westminster and they are very bright and especially so in maths and sciences. However, I feel that English (and VR) is what set those apart who were admitted to Westminster.

So, if I were you, I would really focus on comprehension and vocabulary, as I'm sure your DS is already very strong in maths. I also think that the boys who are admitted are more than just 'maths/science geeks' (I think) but they are the kind of kid who could talk to adults about almost anything and have an opinion (and not from being tutored for the interview). There are 1,000s of kids good at maths/NVR!

I would also recommend you start with Atom and an 11+ tutor or go through the CGP books (English/Maths/Verbal Reasoning and NVR).

Good luck!

Doesn't always work- our friends live opposite Kings but their DS didn't even get an interview so he travels to St Paul's every day!

Fortunately, King's is our first choice, being closer, more suited for our non-sporty boy, and less aggressive parents. The gap is not that big and is mainly due to the prestige of the name, resulting in more boys traveling long distance to St Paul's and even more to Westminster, but still, most will choose the closer and more local option.

OP: Not my own experience, among my acquaintances, in the recent years (including this year) QE boys are more difficult to get into compared to Westminister upper in London. So not sure why this school is not even in the pecking order 😅

@veryworriedmum OP: From our own experience and that of our friends, among the London schools, for boys, Westminster is the most difficult to get into, followed by St Paul's, and then followed by King's, and then City, and then schools like Hampton, LU, Habs, Highgate etc. We got King's (and all schools below it), waitlisted for St Paul, and rejected by Westminster. It is roughly the same order in terms of prestige and academic attainment. Outside of London and in particular outside of the UK, except for Eton which is better known, it seems only Westminster and St Paul's are names that are more broadly known. I suppose this is the information you want to know (or already knew and just want confirmation).