Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

How important is a modern foreign language GCSE for Higher Ed?

58 replies

cool4cats2020 · 28/03/2023 22:56

DD is in yr 9 and about to make her choices for GCSE options. We were told at parent's evening a couple of weeks ago that a foreign language gcse was no longer compulsory. But the options form was sent out last week, and one of the options is to choose between French or German. She's already been doing French for 3+ years, so would seem foolish to switch now.

I'd assumed all the kids were given the same list of options, but found out today that they aren't - the school decides what to offer each child (sounds like it's based on their ability as much as anything else). And not all kids have been forced to pick a foreign language.

We had a open evening tonight to find out more about the options/subjects. Explained to the Head of Year that DD really isn't keen on French, and there are multiple other subjects in the other choice groups that she'd prefer to study. HOY frowned a bit but said that it was perfectly possible to do another subject in place of a foreign language (as some other kids are being offered anyway) if she really wanted to. He explained that a foreign language is desirable for the academicly strong as it's needed for the EBacc, and some top universities require a foreign language GCSE for admission. But then he said that's only really oxbridge and most others aren't so critical about it.

So just how important is the foreign language for university admission requirements? I had a quick look online and didn't see any that mentioned it, just the usual gcse maths and english plus A levels. I'd never even heard of this EBacc thing until today. When I went to uni 25 years ago I flunked gcse french and it was never even mentioned, but I still got into a decent uni to study a science masters. But maybe things have changed since then?

Background: DD is thriving at school, very studious and getting good reports in all subjects, in top sets and predicted strong grades. French is probably her weakest subject, and she doesn't sound to be enjoying it at all. She's not really decided on a career path, but is keen to study triple science gcse and citizenship (seems to be a blend of politics, law and related stuff, so could be quite interesting and genuinely useful) for her other options. So she's not shying away from academic subjects or looking for easy options.

If we shuffle the options and lose French it looks like she could take Creative iMedia instead (not an actual GCSE qualification, but supposedly equivalent). She's keen to do this and I'd be happy for her to as well, would be good to get a bit of a mix with all the other academic subjects that she's chosen, and maybe even put an interesting twist on her CV. She might even decide on a different career path in this area.

So my only concern is would a lack of foreign language hold her back in the higher ed admissions process? (I doubt she'll be looking at oxbridge, but you never know)

OP posts:
Original poster
cool4cats2020 · 29/03/2023 18:02

TizerorFizz · 29/03/2023 17:37

DD took 2 x MFL and triple Science. Sciences are pushed. Most schools don’t care a fig about MFL. DH employs engineers. Lots of them are good at Engineering but their written English in reports is poor. You need a bit of everything to function. As I said, the brightest manage everything. Not stem and not much else.

You've got to understand that this is a struggling school in a deprived area. They are trying to cater for the audience that they have, and unfortunately that means that their intake is predominantly a lot of kids who are underachieving academically on arrival. So they don't offer a massive choice of academic GCSE subjects, and the maximum no of GCSE's it's possible to take is 9. Given the options they have on offer, it's not possible to choose 2x MFL and triple science.

I'd have rather DD went to a better school, but this was her choice, and most of the other local schools are no better. The only one that is is oversubscribed and we're out of their catchment area. We did consider trying for grammar school, but that's an hour each way on the train and the kids who've been privately educated at primary age tend to win all the places there anyway.

DD is thriving at her school (maybe only because the average standard there is below national average), so I'm glad that she's doing well and happy, even if a better school might have pushed her on to slightly better final grades. I'm more concerned about how her younger siblings will do, as they aren't so studious or strong academically, and I fear those are the sort of kids that the school is failing because they aren't able to pull themselves above the masses and achieve higher.

I've no idea why you're bringing written English into the discussion? That's a compulsory subject and all your DH's engineers will have got a least a C grade GCSE in it. It's presumably their native language and still they're struggling So what does that say about compulsory subjects at GCSE?

And that's not my experience at all, most good 'real' engineers (as in degree qualified, and probably chartered) have excellent written English skills. Unfortunately the term 'engineer' is applied to many lesser roles these days, where they're actually describing technicians, perhaps that's where your DH is actually finding that people have poor English skills?

I think my own English is pretty good (without any particular effort from me), but I'm hopeless at foreign languages, my head simply isn't wired for it. The two are very different subjects.

OP posts:
Original poster
cool4cats2020 · 29/03/2023 17:38

lanthanum · 29/03/2023 11:22

Your child doesn't need a language. One university (not Oxbridge) used to ask those without a language to do a language module whilst there.

The school's statistics will be better if they do a language, because it will increase their EBacc rate. Their attainment/progress 8 won't be any worse if the grade is low, because only eight subjects are used for that, so they'll use the better-scoring subjects.

The biggest problem MIGHT be timetabling. Hopefully it's fairly flexible across the whole year, so may not be a problem. However if they timetable the top end (who have been given the more restricted choices) separately to the lower end, it's possible that there is a timetable block where everyone in that "band" is doing a language, and that it might not work unless your child moves to the other band, where triple science might not be an option. It's more likely that options are done across the whole year, though, so hopefully not a problem.

The timetabling issue was a concern of mine too. I could well imagine that if she switched geography to the option block to replace the MFL choices then she could end up being in a low set for geography because that's the timetabling slot where all the kids that aren't doing a MFL will be having geography lessons. I put this to two teachers last night (including the head of year, who suggested it), and they claimed this wouldn't be the case. I am sceptical as to how they can make all the options combinations work within the timetable restrictions.

It is a poorly performing school (as are most of the others round here unfortunately - all of them are 10% below the national average for GCSE results). I would have preferred DD to go to one of the other schools, as they looked better to me. But I gave her the choice to go where she wanted, something I think is important, because if I pushed her to go somewhere else and she hated it, she could underperform badly. There's a lot to be said about being happy at school and enjoying your education, it's got to be a huge motivator to succeed.

OP posts:
TizerorFizz · 29/03/2023 17:37

DD took 2 x MFL and triple Science. Sciences are pushed. Most schools don’t care a fig about MFL. DH employs engineers. Lots of them are good at Engineering but their written English in reports is poor. You need a bit of everything to function. As I said, the brightest manage everything. Not stem and not much else.

Stugs · 29/03/2023 17:32

cool4cats2020 · 29/03/2023 17:27

It matters for choice. Food tech is not History. History is good prep for loads of degrees. Good tech isn’t and narrows down choices at A level and beyond. Good schools expect at least one humanity at gcse. They do this for a reason. The best academic Dc (excluding stem) will have a humanity and a MFL. We have 4 compulsory stem subjects but only English for other students who emotionally be stem students. It’s not good enough to ensure we have well educated Dc. There’s a lot to be said for encouraging a humanity, a MFL, an art and a technology. Choices at A level then stay broad snd media studies isn’t the single option in addition to English! (Yes - exaggerated but gcse means General!)

DD certainly can manage the MFL (she's been predicted grade 6-7 after her yr9 mock exams), and as I explained she isn't shying away from harder/academic subjects at all. Why would someone looking for easy options choose triple science when combined is the standard option?

She is taking all the other academic options that the school is offering (unless she opted for both History and Geography), the only one she's not keen on is French. And as her career interest and academic strengths are in STEM field a MFL doesn't seem a priority.

Everyone else is saying that the only restriction of not having a MFL at GCSE is that it prevents a student going on to study it at A Level or higher ed. But you're telling me that DD's GCSE choices is really narrowing down her future options for A Level. Which sounds like total nonsense. Like many other kids, DD has absolutely no interest in persuing MFL at a higher level. The chances of her changing her mind on that are miniscule. So she's not hamstringing herself is she.

I get that we want a good general educated population at GCSE level, but we can't all be linguists. Same as we can't all be scientists. If a child was more interested and achieving higher in MFL than science, would you be telling them that they should take triple science instead of a second MFL? Why do we need everyone to be a linguist? Especially when modern tech has given us such good real time translation capabilities through our mobile devices. I'd say a MFL is less relevant than ever before, it'd be a bit like making kids use slide rules today instead of a digital calculator.

DD could study French and then in the future find that German (or some other language) would have been more useful to her. In that regard, it seems bonkers to specialise on just one foreign language when there are so many others available. Why do schools only offer the bog standard European languages? They're probably the least useful in todays global market. They should be offering more worldwide relevant languages like Japanese and Mandarin. Maybe then people would see MFL as a more useful qualification?

And it does seem that our education system is pushing specialisation at GCSE level more than ever. When I chose my own GCSE options, there was basically only 1 extra choice that was a bit outside the box. DD's school is also offering Level 2 Automotive Maintenance and Level 2 Health and Social care as options (in place of 2 GCSEs). That's got to be far more specialisation than anything academic on offer?

I did GCSE French (as it was compulsory), and I've never used it once in the 3 decades since. I think it is the most useless subject I've ever studied, whereas all my other GCSE subjects have come in useful occasionally. I'm pretty sure I'd have made use of stuff learned in iMedia too, if it had existed back then. I guess I'm self taught in that field to some extent.

Yet with all that, I haven't tried to steer DD's choices at all, just listened to what she wants to do.

Show quote history

Dd1 took a health and social care btec. I was a bit dubious at the time but she says it was the most useful subject she ever took and the only one she's ever been asked about at interview (she's a physio currently doing a Msc)

Original poster
cool4cats2020 · 29/03/2023 17:27

TizerorFizz · 29/03/2023 10:06

Basically the brightest DC can manage a MFL. If you choose media and something else that’s easier, you probably can’t. So university will still be an option but subjects are obviously narrowed down if you don’t take the subjects that give the best prep. Everyone should do a solid humanity. This choice of GCSEs really narrows down A level choices and looks like a Dc who doesn’t want to make much effort.

DC often don’t get great MFL teaching at primary. Doesn’t stop them learning a MFL at secondary. Or music, drama, art or technology which are not taught at primary either.

we have such a narrow view of what education should be. Of course we need linguists! Our inward looking mentality has caused us lots of issues!

It matters for choice. Food tech is not History. History is good prep for loads of degrees. Good tech isn’t and narrows down choices at A level and beyond. Good schools expect at least one humanity at gcse. They do this for a reason. The best academic Dc (excluding stem) will have a humanity and a MFL. We have 4 compulsory stem subjects but only English for other students who emotionally be stem students. It’s not good enough to ensure we have well educated Dc. There’s a lot to be said for encouraging a humanity, a MFL, an art and a technology. Choices at A level then stay broad snd media studies isn’t the single option in addition to English! (Yes - exaggerated but gcse means General!)

DD certainly can manage the MFL (she's been predicted grade 6-7 after her yr9 mock exams), and as I explained she isn't shying away from harder/academic subjects at all. Why would someone looking for easy options choose triple science when combined is the standard option?

She is taking all the other academic options that the school is offering (unless she opted for both History and Geography), the only one she's not keen on is French. And as her career interest and academic strengths are in STEM field a MFL doesn't seem a priority.

Everyone else is saying that the only restriction of not having a MFL at GCSE is that it prevents a student going on to study it at A Level or higher ed. But you're telling me that DD's GCSE choices is really narrowing down her future options for A Level. Which sounds like total nonsense. Like many other kids, DD has absolutely no interest in persuing MFL at a higher level. The chances of her changing her mind on that are miniscule. So she's not hamstringing herself is she.

I get that we want a good general educated population at GCSE level, but we can't all be linguists. Same as we can't all be scientists. If a child was more interested and achieving higher in MFL than science, would you be telling them that they should take triple science instead of a second MFL? Why do we need everyone to be a linguist? Especially when modern tech has given us such good real time translation capabilities through our mobile devices. I'd say a MFL is less relevant than ever before, it'd be a bit like making kids use slide rules today instead of a digital calculator.

DD could study French and then in the future find that German (or some other language) would have been more useful to her. In that regard, it seems bonkers to specialise on just one foreign language when there are so many others available. Why do schools only offer the bog standard European languages? They're probably the least useful in todays global market. They should be offering more worldwide relevant languages like Japanese and Mandarin. Maybe then people would see MFL as a more useful qualification?

And it does seem that our education system is pushing specialisation at GCSE level more than ever. When I chose my own GCSE options, there was basically only 1 extra choice that was a bit outside the box. DD's school is also offering Level 2 Automotive Maintenance and Level 2 Health and Social care as options (in place of 2 GCSEs). That's got to be far more specialisation than anything academic on offer?

I did GCSE French (as it was compulsory), and I've never used it once in the 3 decades since. I think it is the most useless subject I've ever studied, whereas all my other GCSE subjects have come in useful occasionally. I'm pretty sure I'd have made use of stuff learned in iMedia too, if it had existed back then. I guess I'm self taught in that field to some extent.

Yet with all that, I haven't tried to steer DD's choices at all, just listened to what she wants to do.

OP posts:
lanthanum · 29/03/2023 11:22

Your child doesn't need a language. One university (not Oxbridge) used to ask those without a language to do a language module whilst there.

The school's statistics will be better if they do a language, because it will increase their EBacc rate. Their attainment/progress 8 won't be any worse if the grade is low, because only eight subjects are used for that, so they'll use the better-scoring subjects.

The biggest problem MIGHT be timetabling. Hopefully it's fairly flexible across the whole year, so may not be a problem. However if they timetable the top end (who have been given the more restricted choices) separately to the lower end, it's possible that there is a timetable block where everyone in that "band" is doing a language, and that it might not work unless your child moves to the other band, where triple science might not be an option. It's more likely that options are done across the whole year, though, so hopefully not a problem.

TizerorFizz · 29/03/2023 10:59

It matters for choice. Food tech is not History. History is good prep for loads of degrees. Good tech isn’t and narrows down choices at A level and beyond. Good schools expect at least one humanity at gcse. They do this for a reason. The best academic Dc (excluding stem) will have a humanity and a MFL. We have 4 compulsory stem subjects but only English for other students who emotionally be stem students. It’s not good enough to ensure we have well educated Dc. There’s a lot to be said for encouraging a humanity, a MFL, an art and a technology. Choices at A level then stay broad snd media studies isn’t the single option in addition to English! (Yes - exaggerated but gcse means General!)

Stugs · 29/03/2023 10:09

(For university applications I mean)

Stugs · 29/03/2023 10:08

TizerorFizz · 29/03/2023 10:06

Basically the brightest DC can manage a MFL. If you choose media and something else that’s easier, you probably can’t. So university will still be an option but subjects are obviously narrowed down if you don’t take the subjects that give the best prep. Everyone should do a solid humanity. This choice of GCSEs really narrows down A level choices and looks like a Dc who doesn’t want to make much effort.

DC often don’t get great MFL teaching at primary. Doesn’t stop them learning a MFL at secondary. Or music, drama, art or technology which are not taught at primary either.

we have such a narrow view of what education should be. Of course we need linguists! Our inward looking mentality has caused us lots of issues!

I'm not sure I agree. As long as you have Maths, Science x2 or x3, English x 2 and then whatever you might want to take for A level then it doesn't matter at all if you add Food tech or sports btec!

TizerorFizz · 29/03/2023 10:06

Basically the brightest DC can manage a MFL. If you choose media and something else that’s easier, you probably can’t. So university will still be an option but subjects are obviously narrowed down if you don’t take the subjects that give the best prep. Everyone should do a solid humanity. This choice of GCSEs really narrows down A level choices and looks like a Dc who doesn’t want to make much effort.

DC often don’t get great MFL teaching at primary. Doesn’t stop them learning a MFL at secondary. Or music, drama, art or technology which are not taught at primary either.

we have such a narrow view of what education should be. Of course we need linguists! Our inward looking mentality has caused us lots of issues!

aslkde · 29/03/2023 08:29

Our school explained that due to the number of compulsory subjects (maths, English x2, double science and either geog, history, triple science or computer studies) they should be encouraged to use their "options" to do the subjects they enjoy.

The reality is it's very hard to make a bad choice other than being told to a subject because you should, rather than because you want to.

Bimbleberries · 29/03/2023 08:21

I agree that languages are important, and I wish they were taught differently, but given the way they are taught in the UK and the lack of teaching at primary levels, I can completely understand why someone might not want to do it for GCSE. And I think that's fair enough. It's true that other countries teach them much better at lower levels, but also that because of the predominance of the internet, movies etc, they get exposed to English in very different ways, so they have a totally different experience learning English than we do learning other languages. (of course, some countries are also good at encouragin several languages, not just English!).

However I'd look carefully at choosing both iMedia and citizenship, as neither sound like the standard GCSEs that would be useful for A-levels, and so I wonder a bit about who would end up in those classes - if she moves her geography to the group where it is offered to pupils who aren't as academic, will that affect the class she is in - pupils who are less interested or more disruptive, for example. Is there nothing else in the languages group that she could take instead of languages, or is it just that? If she does choose geography from that group, with people who aren't doing languages, is there only one set/teacher available?

Stugs · 29/03/2023 08:13

Dd did French as we both thought it was a requirement. She got her worst grade in it and afterwards we found out that she didn't have to take a language at all. She wishes she'd done drama instead.

Hoppinggreen · 29/03/2023 08:10

I speak several foreign languages and am learning a couple more and I really do think there are advantages to doing a MFL.
However, GCSE languages are hard and A level even harder so I think you have to really want to do them.
The only limiter if you don’t do one though is that you can’t do an A level in one or a degree. For progression to Uni purposes a language is unnecessary now.

LIZS · 29/03/2023 08:08

None insist on it generally, although UCL look for it and require a language course to be taken alongside a degree if not.

longestlurkerever · 29/03/2023 08:07

I personally think it's a little bit lame not even studying one language to GCSE standard but that's more about life skills than HE admissions and it's hardly my business. My DD's school is making it pretty hard for students to take two languages, on the basis they're hard, which seemed equally a bit lame.

Ellmau · 29/03/2023 07:53

some top universities require a foreign language GCSE for admission. But then he said that's only really oxbridge and most others aren't so critical about it.

This is completely wrong and has been for decades, and I would be wondering what else they were getting wrong. Does the school only go up to 16?

But I think languages are a much better subject to take than imedia.

I think I'd suggest she picks geography from the shifted language block concession, and history from block 3. If she enjoys citizenship and goes on to think of, say, law at uni or later, history is a good A level for that so the GCSE would be helpful.

pistachioicecream · 29/03/2023 07:28

Slightly veering off the original question but I totally agree languages should be taught for much longer as a non examined subject.

I’m part of an international network through work and regularly go to events across Europe. The British contingent have an embarrassing lack of language ability in comparison to attendees from other countries who all speak 2/3/4 different languages. It’s pretty embarrassing.

I got an A for GCSE French many years ago but didn’t carry it on for A level because it wasn’t my “best” subject. There’s so much pressure to get top grades that understandably people often end up just studying the things they’re good at.

If we took languages out of that system and saw them more as a life enhancing skill that can open up opportunities and broaden horizons, not just about getting an A, maybe we’d be better as a nation at speaking them.

Mafelicent · 29/03/2023 07:01

I disagree that languages are useless. I've found myself working in an international environment (which was never something I actively pursued) and whilst English is definitely the main language (I'm working in the UK) I would feel really embarrassed and very much on the back foot if I didn't speak at least one other language. And I'm not fluent by any means, but GCSE standard is perfectly adequate for general conversation.

I'd be disappointed if the next generation of kids largely stopped bothering with languages just because they're difficult. Conversational lessons should be compulsory (like non-examined RE seems to be at your school, although maybe you're mistaking that for RSE?) It's so arrogant and rude to just expect the rest of the world do the work.

Ifailed · 29/03/2023 06:42

The reason kids are so resistant to languages at GCSE is because they are so poorly taught lower down.

I disagree, I think it's because most kids realise learning another language is pointless in the vast majority of cases.
I remember asking why we had to do French at school and being told it would be useful when on holiday. I pointed out we went camping each year in the UK, teacher had nothing more to say.

TeenDivided · 29/03/2023 06:38

The reason kids are so resistant to languages at GCSE is because they are so poorly taught lower down.
If everyone started properly learning a language in say y3 (especially the speaking before they got all teenage and embarrassed) many more would be willing to take it at GCSE.
But we don't have budget or MFL teachers for that...

Tockomtele · 29/03/2023 06:36

I'm with PP on this. I'll never understand the resistance to learning languages. It allowed me to come to the UK. In my experience if you speak a language you get accepted a lot quicker than if not.
My kids are studying German (not my main language) and I keep telling them how this could open up new opportunities for them in the future.

Lotzana · 29/03/2023 06:27

Languages should be compulsory. Regardless of whether unis want it or not, knowing another language and being bilingual broadens your horizons in a way other subjects cannot. It's such a shame that languages are seen as so difficult and unpopular in the UK while many Europeans routinely know more than one.

BrowniesnotBlondies · 29/03/2023 06:17

I'm going to sound awful here, but often the imedia course is the dumping ground for the students who are not likely to do well in a more academic subject. And not necessarily because they are not able, just not willing.....Not all schools. But worth thinking about...

BunnyCross · 29/03/2023 05:25

The advice from school is plain wrong. Perhaps you could ask them if they are lying or they just don't know what they are talking about.
I don't think Citizenship would be a top priority, but if she doesn't want to pursue any of the creative options which are offered as alternatives, and she is motivated to take it then fair enough.
The iMedia course is popular at our school and attracts learners from a wide ability range. Make sure she is happy with the particular modules offered by your school, there are a wide range but usually schools only offer one compulsory route.