Choosing local comp over private or grammar

Yes I think so - it’s great that he went with most of his best friends from primary and that all his friends live so close by. Though none of them are in his class which is a shame. I guess just adding general cultural capital - museums, foreign holidays, cultural experiences. Will look at tutoring if it’s necessary.

We have just chosen to send our year 6 DC to their local state secondary school, rather than a selective private school. DC got their first choice state school and we've gone with that. It's hard to describe but when we saw the state school offer it just felt right, maybe if we hadn't got our first choice we possibly would have gone private. The state school is local and DC will be able to walk with friends, the school is more socially diverse, there are loads of extra curricular actvities and it gets great results, which seeing as it is truly comprehensive must mean the teaching is of a very high standard.

I agree that London feels quite stressful when it comes to secondary schools, partly because it seems like different tribes of parents make massively different choices depending on where they live in London. In my borough, most children go to the local state school, some go private and very, very few go to the one grammar they are in catchment for (because its so hard to get into). I feel like everyone around me expects the state schools to be good and the schools do deliver (for all aspirations, abilities and needs). That said post national offer day there are clearly some schools which are very popular and it is very hard for DCs who don't get their first, second, or even third choices. There are definiltey anxious parents waiting on waiting lists now.

I would say the best thing for you to do is go and visit all the schools. Go and see the state and private schools and see how you feel about them. Speak to the teachers, find out what is on the syllabus in a subject you feel passionate about so you can compare how they talk about it with other schools you visit. I visited loads of schools last september adnthe years before, all state and private and it really helped me understand what I wanted for our DC.

One tip I found quite useful was in the year or so before choosing a secondary school to keep an eye on how many vacancies they had/how much recruitment they were doing, what subjects etc so you could see which schools were really struggling and which were finding it easier to recruit/retain staff.

I can only assume however that by the time your kids get to high schools things will have improved

I don't see how it will improve tbh which would be my main concern & certainly in my part of London where I grew up the catchments for the excellent comp secondaries have got much tighter & the house prices around are much higher which does create less socioeconomic mix.

I would, however, completely agree about the school funding point. Unless school
funding and teacher retention improves dramatically in the interim, you may find yourself in a position where only by paying private fees can you have any confidence in building safety, adequate equipment and reasonably consistent staffing (and even then it may be flaky within some subjects, particularly Maths, Physics and Computer Science).

Sorry, Phos, I think I misunderstood your point.

You were saying, I think, that, for an able child, sending them to a nearly true comprehensive (with a full range of ability including the most able, but with a small proportion going to grammar schools) was something that you would ‘struggle to justify’, on the basis of in-class behaviour within all comprehensives?

I think that grammar supporters are also somewhat more confident than the data justifies that the 11+ is a good test of ability. We know anyway that it is highly coachable - so a middle ability well-prepared child will gain access to the grammars while their much more able uncoached peers will be in the alternative schools. You know this yourself - you are paying for a prep school to give your child this edge, regardless of their ‘genuine’ ability in comparison to their peers.

The 11+ is also not particularly reproducible - while the group who ‘pass’ will exclude those of very low ability, when it comes down to individual children, the exact children who pass and fail would be different if another 11+ test was taken the following day or the following week. Further, depending on design, it may discriminate against children with spiky profiles eg genuinely exceptional at one subject but less able in another.

That means that, while the grammar school will tend not to admit children who will be in the very lowest sets of a comprehensive, it does not follow that all the children in a grammar school would be in the top set of a comprehensive in, say, Y8, nor that all the children in the top set of the comprehensive are - if measured over time with a range of tests - less able than their peers in the grammar school.

You are very fortunate to potentially have the choice of private/grammar/comp. I would not be even thinking about making a decision right now. Schools can change a lot in a few years with a change of Head/management. Wait and see how your child develops and go and visit the schools when you are getting close to decision time. Try to ignore the title private/comp etc and think about which school will be the best fit for your particular child at that time. It's impossible to generalise about any sector, because there is such huge variation - there are some great schools and some terrible ones in all sectors. You need to make the decision based on the specific schools and child involved. We turned down a place at a top super-selective grammar for our eldest, (against the advice of just about everyone we knew) because it just didn't feel like the right fit for him. He ended up very happy elsewhere and made it to his first choice uni. Job done!

I gave up a career and retrained when the kids were little. If I'd have stayed on in my first career we could have sent our 2 kids to private school. They both ended up in state schools. There are no grammars in our area.

It's worked out fine for us.

The comps my kids went to both had higher than average progress 8. Both kids were streamed in the top sets and they found the other kids in them worked hard and didn't really cause too much trouble. The eldest one has gone to a great uni and the younger one will probably end up applying for Oxbridge. The both had/have friends who were motivated to do well in exams and go to uni which I think helps.

The downside is that there have been an increased number of supply teachers over the years. Parts of their school buildings look like they are falling apart. Class numbers have crept up. Letters are sent home asking for additional financial contributions to buy equipment etc because there is just not enough funding. As a parent, I've invested many hours and a lot of money in extra curriculum activities. Pastoral care in one school in particular was awful as we came out of the pandemic.

If I had to do it again I would probably chose the same route but I question myself about this as I've seen a decade of the underfunding of state schools and the impacts it's had overall. I can only assume however that by the time your kids get to high schools things will have improved.

No @cantkeepawayforever I'm not. I am in a county with 3 grammar schools. I suppose they are super selective in that respect.

Yes, we could have comfortably sent dd to a private school but chose to go down the state comprehensive route instead. She is in Year 13 now. We have absolutely zero regrets and I actually think she has benefitted immensely from being in a more socioeconomically diverse environment.

She has excelled academically (straight 9s at GCSE, predicted straight A*s at A-level, going on to do medicine at uni etc). She has bags of poise and confidence - ready to try anything, talk to anyone, great social skills, unfazed by public speaking etc. She has had tremendous enjoyment from her extracurricular activities (mainly performing arts) both in school and outside of school. She has done a lot of the outside of school performances alongside kids from the private schools, and she clearly hasn't been at any disadvantage. And she has gained insights into the lives and challenges of many of her peers that I have no doubt will help her immensely in her chosen career.

So for us, it has been great. However, I think that's partly because dd has always been very bright anyway, as well as naturally very confident and self-motivated. This has enabled her to really thrive in the state school, but some kids might need a bit more help, a bit more nurturing or a bit more pushing. The best thing you can do is know your own child and choose the school on the basis of what they need as individuals. The sector isn't important if you are lucky enough to be able to afford to choose.

There are no grammars near us, thankfully. I really don't agree with them but it would have been hard to avoid in a grammar area.

You have loads of time and choice. My niece is a teacher in your area, she has 2 primary aged children. Whether grammar will suit your ds as he's so young you don't yet know. You need to check out how good the local comp is, check all options.

We don't have grammar here in Surrey, but all the local schools are good, and the Catholic one that ds2 still goes to is superb. Ds1 now at Uni, I found if the school is good, bright children from invested families thrive. Anywhere, at any good school. Most of ds1's school peers had literally everything going for them, exceptionally bright, nice, good looking, top set maths, loads of friends, balanced individuals, drive a car, big family house, sporty, off to uni - either Oxbridge or Durham or Bath/any good uni. The schools pastoral care, helping them with PS for Uni applications. You get all that if the school is good, your'll get bright kids, with everything going for them, parents who care, for your dc to mix with their peers. It breeds an even better school. Do your dc will thrive.

You have tonnes of time to check out your options.

@ElvenDreamer For sure. I would never do it but I know people do. Can't imagine subjecting a child to that journey, I did it for 2 weeks and it was hellish. Seems daft, the local options are really not bad.

Just in case you did decide to put the Essex grammars on your radar @Jujujuly , this information isn't quite correct. The Chelmsford grammars do have a catchment, with 5 percent only each year reserved for out of catchment, consequently the scoring for those places OOC is incredibly high. (Even IC for Chelmsford tbf.) Ditto the Southend grammars. Only the Colchester schools have no catchment and they are superselctives. Honestly the commute would be a nightmare though I'd have thought. Chelmsford actively ask OOC parents to think incredibly carefully about if it's worth it as they expect the children to take full part in the extra curricular life of the school.

On your original point, as with all education questions, it really depends on what your child will get out if each experience, and that won't be the same as someone else. Also every school/area is different. Grammar or private may not mean better for all children, but it doesn't mean it's not better for some. Look at the strengths of the schools individually and the interests and motivations of your child. Good luck with everything!

Our 3 boys went to the local village primary and then on to a highly accademic and sporting, single sex, private school.

One of them sailed through and thrived, boarded through his own choice, was in the Firsts for rugby and got good results. He is an easy-going boy and thought of as being a "thoroughly nice bloke".

One has ADHD and was a PITA for the teachers to have to teach, just low level disruption. He got brilliant GCSE results, whilst medicated and a complete zombie, but was not allowed to continue to the 6th Form and the discrimination they showed was incredible. Basically they washed their hands of him, but for the 5 years he was there it was OK..

The third son never liked the school from the word go. Not sporty like his brothers, struggled academically and used to have severe panic attacks. The school found him to be too hard work to try and teach, so they "suggested he leave" after an horrific ordeal where he smashed his own face up after being yelled at for having the wrong coloured socks for basketball in Year 9. We researched many other schools and eventually he said himself he would rather go the local comp. At this point i just wanted him to be happy, so he went.

The local comp doesn't have the trips, the flashy sports centre, the theatre etc but what it does have is teachers that really really care about my son and his fragile MH. They are caring and supportive and kind in complete contrast to the masters at the private school, who were frankly, massive bullies.

So my advice is wait and see who your child is, whether they are sensitive, loud, arty, sporty, popular or not so, etc etc. You should know this by Year 4 or thereabouts. And then listen to your child when you discuss with them where they would like to go. x

For an academically bright kid who would cope with it, a grammar school is great. Higher standards and generally better behaviour, less of the low level disruption. I'd struggle to justify a comp for a kid like that. However for those kids who would just scrape in, sometimes it is better to be in the top set at a good comp than struggling in the bottom sets at a grammar school.

It is clear from this that you are in a selective area - like Kent, for example - where the school called ‘comprehensive’ is, in fact, a secondary modern, because such a large proportion of more able children attend grammars.

In other areas of the country - as a pp said, where the small number of grammars are superselective - the ‘other schools’ are much more like true comprehensives, and some of the children in the top sets in them would also be in top set of a grammar.

Despite my dc’s comprehensive being ‘the other school in an area with grammars’, the children in its top set included very high attainers - Oxbridge, Russell Group bound. Interestingly, Dd, who moved for sixth form, found herself near the very top of her new peer group (formed from pupils who had previously been at grammars, private and comprehensive schools) and as I said, went on to a highly competitive university where many of the previously grammar students failed to gain a place.

yeah, England's not really like NI [or like most of England used to be 50 years ago], where if you don't get into a grammar you're nine times out of ten in the . any English comp where they set all the core subjects no later than say the start of year 8 will have pretty high standards in the top sets.

For context, most of us use the local comp because there are no grammars and private is out if the question. We don't use the term local comp because it is simply the school. So there is no choice and none of this anguish. And many many children do very well indeed, they even get into top universities, even Oxbridge, and have great careers and are very successful.

What I'm trying to say is, relax. I would put money on your children doing very well indeed. Good luck 🤞

A lot depends on what you mean by "grammar", this is an umbrella term which covers a lot of different setups. The weakest and strongest grammars in the UK are every bit as far apart as the weakest and strongest comprehensives. And of course most comprehensives don't stream, and not all consistently set across all subjects.

e.g. In Northern Ireland, the top c 40% go to a grammar. The top set of a true comprehensive [i.e. one in which highest achievers haven't been creamed off by grammars] is nearly always stronger on average than average of the intake of a NI grammar. Especially if we're talking about a single top class [e.g. not two 'top classes' that are on a roughly equal level] then the comp top set will be much stronger.

In Kent, the top c 30% go to a grammar. So the top set of a true comp [i.e. one outside Kent] is, for the reasons outlined above, typically stronger than the average of the intake of a Kent grammar - e.g. if a school year has 6 sets in it then the top set gives you about the top 17%.

if you're talking about a super-selective grammar, that's different. Even the top set of a very large comprehensive school [e.g. with a 10 form intake, so the top set gives you the top 10%] will on average be weaker than the average of a SS grammar intake. But, of course, the very top end of such a set will still be very strong. e.g. comprehensives in total get far more Oxbridge places than grammars do [tho of course there are many many more of them].

I do think peer groups are the second biggest indicator after family life. Who your kids choose to hang out with has a massive impact and by sending them to more academic schools, I guess you are minimising their chances of getting into a bad crowd and mixing with kids for whom education just isn't important. However, I've worked in various schools and some of the worst peer groups I've seen have been in wealthy schools, whether that's private or the leafy states. The amount of drugs and neglect running through them is quite sad. That's not to say this doesn't happen in other schools, of course poverty is a magnet to this stuff, but money does disguise how bad it is.
I think the biggest thing you can do is instill moral values in your child and keep them busy in their teen years. There is no guarantee unfortunately, but I completely understand your dilemma.

Our local area has 2 grammar schools, and another just about commutable distance (depending which side of the town you live on) but apart from a couple of notable exceptions, the comps are really good too. Partly due to a MAT that stepped in a few years ago and have worked wonders.

My daughter is at a private prep school. I'll make no bones about the fact I sent her there partly to give her the best possible chance of getting into one of the grammars. It very much depends on the child. For an academically bright kid who would cope with it, a grammar school is great. Higher standards and generally better behaviour, less of the low level disruption. I'd struggle to justify a comp for a kid like that. However for those kids who would just scrape in, sometimes it is better to be in the top set at a good comp than struggling in the bottom sets at a grammar school.