Child going to grammar but not working at greater depth

I’d say he will be fine if he got a place. Grammar schools can be competitive though. We don’t live in a grammar area but live near the Surrey / south london grammars that are hugely competitive. A friends son was there and hated it, he was very bright but so was everyone else and he struggled to make friends and came to the local secondary for sixth form. She didn’t bother putting her other children through it. I guess if his dad’s a teacher he can help him

@MyBloodyBrother just wondering how your dc is getting on. My DD appears to have had a good first year and so far settling into yr8

Oh, sorry, ignore me- apparently I can't read threads today.

I don't know the school you've mentioned, so my comments aren't relevant.

I'm trying to work out which school it is now- I didn't think the pass marks got shared anywhere?

I'm somewhat local and without wanting to be outing I've taught students who've left both the boys schools at sixth form (so obviously a biased view) but I don't think any of them would describe the boys schools as supportive.

That said, I doubt scruffy handwriting will be an issue- I'm not sure the idea that it "won't matter" is necessarily true- I think you'd need to talk to the school about whether a laptop would be an option.

That said, what's your alternative? I've not heard great things recently about DHSB (but again that's from students who are leaving or their parents), for example but it's probably still better than a lot of the alternative schools in the city?

Does your local grammar also have distance criteria once people have scored above a threshold to be ‘grammar pass’? Some do. So some kids with very top marks won’t get a place as they don’t live close enough.

Not that many are super selective without any catchment area and purely going down the ranking of the exam.

Dont worry….assessed as being at GD is fairly meaningless and Grammar Schools will pay less attention to it than Comps, where they need something to distinguish between students. Expectations for all the kids at Grammar willbe high. But don’t worry it will be too hard. They are all 11 year olds, doing 11 year old work. It’s just that they can go faster and spend more time on depth.

If he passed, he’s earned his place.

@steppemum @cortisolqueen @Deltasigma your conflicting comments about pass marks highlights the differences between how the 11 plus is administered in different areas, and even between different schools in the same area.

@MyBloodyBrother I agree with the majority on here that say that if your DS has been offered a place at a grammar like Colyton after only minimal tutoring, he should be absolutely fine.

This isn’t the case eg, in Reading super selectives where the pass mark is adjusted to ensure additional PP passes, so the pass mark of eg, 104, means that 400 girls pass the 11+ but only 128 places are available. It is nicer for ~40% to feel they have achieved a pass even though it is a long way off the mark high enough for entry (usually 112 upwards - standardised score).

If he passed with only that much tutoring, he will be absolutely fine and fly! (I’m a gs teacher, we can spot the heavily tutored ones a mile off)

@MyBloodyBrother
@Goodbyestranger is knowledgable about this school. She might pick up on this thread.

You're dealing with a mechanical problem, not a lack of intellect.

Teacher sounds as if she knows what she's talking about.

@MyBloodyBrother our of interest which of the devon grammar schools has he got a place at. Dd had a similar level of 11 plus prep and got into Colyton. At last parents evening she had a mixed review some at GD, maths not quite hitting it, so we have been equally concerned. Her teacher seems fairly happy with her but not letting her drop before Sat's by giving her a little extra homework on the areas not hitting GD.

I wouldn't be too worried no.

some kids are fairly middle-of-the-road in class, but take it all in and ace the exams, and do brilliantly in the end, and that's totally fine.

it's the opposite scenario that might be concerning. someone working at extra depth in class who falls apart in exams needs extra support but that's not where you are

@MyBloodyBrother honestly, he will be fine, take the place. so many children get in because they are hyper-tutored, so for him to pass with only “medium” level help, he will be more capable than some of the others, and will enjoy it hugely once he’s got used to it. the KS2 exams are just about how well they answer the questions and not true intellectual potential

There will be a few kids in the year (there always are) who really are below capability: they are the over tutored kids. they will struggle.

Be aware that pretty much every child finds grammar very tiring the first term because the lessons are so much wider scope and interesting with so many new subjects. this is totally normal and something they all adapt to by the end of the first few terms. So please don’t worry if he seems exhausted at times in y7, they all are by that first December, it doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be there!

@MyBloodyBrother I have DS at a grammar school. We didn't do intensive tutoring, as I didn't want him to struggle at the school. He got in, with barely any prep work compared to others.
We were home educating pre secondary, so I can't comment with how well he was working (English was the one I was worried about).
Then there are children in his form, who talk about having had solid 2 or more years of tutoring to pass the exam. The ones from the local prep and those that have had intensive tutoring are the ones that are finding it a little bit of a challenge at the moment.
The point I'm making, is that if your child has done so well without the tutoring they definitely should have the natural ability to keep going.

DS school offers extra support, a lot of those struggling are taking extra English/maths/French etc lessons. The school will be supportive if they think your child needs to extra help.

yes, that gap of students who have passed but don't get a place is as small as possible.
In some areas as well, the pass mark is for the county but individual schools will only cream off those who get the top grades, so they don't get a place at that school but would get a place at another grammar (which is maybe not so popular) this is true for Kent.

It is exactly the same as how GCSE and A levels are marked. Top xx % get As next x% get Bs etc. The pass lines are not set in stone. Numbers sitting the exam and how hard it is etc mean that the numbers reaching a set number would vary too much from year to year. So they take top %.

Generally for grammar school appeals, they will only consider you if you do have a pass mark.

There's another thread on here by a mum appealing a Grammar School place for her daughter. The pass mark was 160, her daughter got 170 , but there are only enough places for children who scored down to 179 at that particular school.

I would trust the process more than any particular teacher.

If your son passed the 11+ test with that little preparation, he is likely to do very well at grammar school.

If he is not doing very well at his current school in English, despite being a voracious reader and scoring high on the 11+ for natural ability, then the problem is probably the teacher.

So, relax about it, send him to the grammar school, and IF after a year or two there you aren’t happy, move him then. A lot of children move school at beginning of year 9 as this is the starting age for some private schools and that has a knock on effect on places elsewhere.

I doubt it.

They only have x number of places. If they have a rigid pass mark, they cannot predict the number who will pass and they may end up over (or under) their PAN.

It sounds like a reassuring statement for parents.

In reality if they have 150 places, they can only off 150 places (well, plus an amount to allow for the normal changes between taking exam and taking up places)

They do not like to have eg 300 pass and then 150 kids not be able to get a place on allocation day, so the pass mark for each year is set at the point where the number of students passing is approximately equivalent to the number of places on offer.

Honestly, I've been doing this for a long time, that is how it works.

I have had 2 students over the last few years like this, both were massively underestimated by their primary schools, one school laughed at the idea that he should take the 11+. I assessed him and what was clear was that this was a highly intelligent child who really struggled to record what he could do on paper, due to appalling handwriting.

I suggested to mum that she got an occupational therapist assessment of him, and that if that threw anything up, that she pushed for him to be able to use a computer instead of writing for all his work.
It turns out that he has hypermobile joints, which is a common reason for kids to be unable to write legibly, he started to use an ipad or computer for all written work, so that by the time he headed off to year 7 that was well established. He is flourishing now.

I currently have another similar student. Very clever, and handwriting completely illegible, and cannot write on the line. I have recommended to parents that they push for him to be able to use a computer. With or without an assessment this is an accommodation that schools can choose to do (but possibly not for SATs)

For GCSE etc, if the student normally uses a computer, they can use one in GCSE. They don't need an EHCP or even a doctor's assessment. If that is what they use they can use one for the exams.
My 15 year old was allowed to start using a computer (in grammar school) in year 8 and it was such a relief, her writing is tidy, but very, very slow and her wrists hurt. No diagnosis, but using a computer was sucha relief and has really helped her.

@steppemum you may think this isn't true, but this was direct from the grammar school consortium (5 schools), so it may be true for them.

Only two children at our school are working at greater depth for English in yr 6. Neither took the 11+. Four other children passed the 11+ and are going to grammar schools in Plymouth in September. I've been told by our HT that the greater depth for English this year is extremely difficult to get. If your son passed well enough for a place without much tuition he should be fine.