What's wrong with hothousing?

@ThunderDad also, what is the point of trying to speed up your dc education or learning? Some dc are late bloomers. For example when my ds was 3 almost 4, his school sent home books for phonics and reading. My ds did not seem ready. So we had a very relaxed approach. I did not try to make him read. I saw he was not ready and left it. When I could see he was actually ready to read (I would check from time to time when reading to him) then we started reading. My ds is GDS for reading now and this is on his own. He developed a passion for reading because I did not force him so early on. Once he was ready, I supported him, provided him with books I thought would interest him.

The thing about being against 'hothousing' is that it gives a very convenient excuse for parents to be pretty lazy parents.

You really did call parents lazy.

I knew the first wife of Ruth Lawrence’s father. She left him because she refused to let him do to their children what he then did to her.

What if your son grows up to have little interest in music? Would you be fine with that?

"To clarify what I mean by hothousing: it doesn't exactly mean pushing your kid hard. But it is a time-intensive method of parenting. Activities with toddlers are actually best made consistently slightly too easy for them."

@ThunderDad then you don't understand the meaning of the word hothousing. Hothousing is about pushing your kid hard. What you described is just normal parenting

Come back every 3yrs to update please thunderdad

"remarkable success I have achieved with my own son"

And there, for all to see, is the reflected glory.

@ThunderDad what's the point of him knowing all those shapes?

Thunderdad - “hours and hours of games and conversation” is what the rest of us call “parenting”

@Violinist64 It sounds like you are a fine teacher and I'm sorry if I might have misinterpreted your words. I unfortunately don't have pitch myself but I think I would have developed it with some training before the age of three. I say this because of the remarkable success I have achieved with my own son.

To clarify what I mean by hothousing: it doesn't exactly mean pushing your kid hard. But it is a time-intensive method of parenting. Activities with toddlers are actually best made consistently slightly too easy for them. This way they continually learn but also gain confidence. I have learned this, in fact, from having pushed piano students too hard in the past and have determined not to make the same mistake with my son. However I have put in a lot of time with him from birth to three (and I'm very glad to have had the luxury to do this). It's the time that makes the difference. Hours and hours of conversations, games, flashcards, fun activities which he enjoys. When he has had enough of something I back off - this is crucial when 'hothousing'.

Once a kid is at school, I completely agree that scheduling their free time with activities and tutors is probably very counterproductive. From about age three I believe that children need a lot of time to indulge in creative play, even if they spend some of that time being bored. The boredom helps them discover where their interests and passions lie.

The sweet spot is before creative play becomes a thing, when the baby / toddler is totally compliant and receptive. In these years you can, in my opinion, provide a foundation which is worth more than any subsequent schooling, tutoring or university.

I read here a lot of trust in national curiculum and what should be be tought at what age. But I don't have that confidence... I believe each child is different. Some kids need it slower, some can go faster. That is why I am not against hothousing

Speaking as a teacher, in my experience there is an inverse relationship between schools that "hothouse" and pastoral care. Not that the staff don't care or are unkind, but all that chasing 11+/A* and Oxbridge/Ivy League is awfully hard on anyone who doesn't quite make the grade.

I've probably got the least hot-house-able child and it's been a real learning curve for me and DH (both swots, but we didn't need hothousing - we both enjoyed studying).

I've also got two nieces who are extremely academic and while my DSIS and DBIL are encouraging and supportive, it comes from within.

I find this really interesting. I have always wondered whether hothousing can lead to a person achieving almost beyond what they're naturally capable of so that when it comes to uni (though some students stay close to home and STILL have tutoring/hot housing) or going into the work place (e.g. medicine), things start to unravel which then leads to anxiety (likely already present as strong correlation with perfectionism) and poor MH when these individuals simply don't feel they're up to the job etc?

It would be good to have more stats on this i.e. longitudinal examining those students who self-identify as 'hot housed' (including those with helicopter/tiger parents) and how they fare once they go to university. Are they more likely to suffer with MH issues (I think other studies have shown that poorer self esteeem and fear of failure etc is correlated with more 'controlling' family environments).

I did read somewhere (sorry can't find the link now) that there are huge issues with MH/depression/anxiety in the Asian community, where education is highly prized (and hot housing common)and where only certain professions (e.g. accountancy, medicine and dentristy) are seen as options.

Anyone with insight into any of this?

Is there, e.g., a higher drop out amongst junior doctors nowadays compared with, say, 20-30 years ago when hot housing really wasn't quite as wide spread (and is there a cultural difference amongst those dropping out)?

I also wonder sometimes whether someone working in A&E who has been pushed beyond their capability, after lots of tutoring through GCSE/A-levels and numerous practice tests for GMAT etc etc but who is perhaps not 'naturally' bright at this level, are they really going to react as quickly as might be needed in acute situations? I wonder whether there is then a feeling of 'not being up to the job' amongst these individuals?

Theorising here but it would be interesting to hear views on this. Of course, there are the Scandivian countries where hothousing isn't (or didn't use to be) at all a thing as parents let children / teens work independently. They still seem to do OK in world rankings when it comes to successful organisations and entrepreneurship...

Also I said that perfect pitch is inherent not genetic, although I am sure it can be genetic. Acquired “perfect pitch” is very often very good relative pitch, which is not the same thing at all. I did not realise that I had perfect pitch until I was sixteen. I had simply assumed that all trained musicians could identify notes and keys by ear and also read pieces of music at pitch in their heads in the same manner as reading a book. I had lots of encouragement from my family, particularly my grandfather, and teachers but not pushed beyond my limits. These people wanted the best for me and not the reflected glory for themselves.

@ThunderDad at which point did l say that l, or others l know did not nurture talent? The extremely talented pupil l mentioned has been encouraged from the outset both by his parents and myself to reach his full potential. He took a few graded exams but not every one as it would have been soul destroying for him and held him back. I have given him every opportunity to perform in public including a concerto movement with a local orchestra. He has just been accepted as a junior scholar at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the country. How could this have happened without encouragement and nurturing and, frankly the skill of knowing how to do it on my behalf. The difference between hothousing and encouragement is that with hothousing you are pushing the whole time whereas with encouragement you are gently enabling them to reach their potential. If you have taught the piano for twenty years you will know that occasionally there is the fire within a pupil that can only be sparked and an undefinable something that cannot be taught but only nurtured. I have taught piano, violin and viola for nearly forty years and had pupils of all ages and abilities. I hope l have encouraged every single one to be the best they can be. I organise an annual pupils’ concert with a retiring collection for charity. Every child has the chance to perform and l make as much as I can of everyone. This is encouragement. When my own children were small l gave them plenty of musical encouragement but didn’t start them on formal lessons until they were six or seven and I also let them gravitate towards the instrument that interested them, although they had piano lessons as a back up. My daughter, for example, is a very talented flautist and also has perfect pitch but I didn’t push her to acquire it.

Many years ago, there was a little girl called Ruth Lawrence who was hothoused by her father to study maths. When she was twelve she went to Oxford and there were photos of her on a tandem with her father on her way to lectures. What sort of life was that? She had no friends her own age and could not participate fully in student life. She is now a middle aged adult who lives on a kibbutz in Israel and has brought up her own children well out of the spotlight. She has said that she would never want her children to experience her upbringing.

Violinist64 when you say 'true talent will just shine', I don't agree. That's not my experience in 20 years of teaching piano. It has to be nurtured. There is debate as to whether perfect pitch is genetic or can be taught. What is certain is that if it is not present at the age of around 3 it will never appear later. This, I suppose, is one thing which makes me very much in favour of hothousing. There are some things which you just can't learn later on. I've noticed that elite musicians (and I know a few) always have had at least one musical parent, have started very young and have, intentionally or not been hothoused in music to some extent.

I'm inclined to think that although pitch is perhaps one of the clearest examples of a talent that requires special nurturing early on, there are probably other fields where it is worth doing a bit of extra work with your toddler.

After all we live and die by our brain, these days more than ever. It seems worthwhile to give your kid a boost.

Also I'm not calling parents who don't hothouse 'lazy'. But be careful to consider whether the philosophy whereby we decide to let our children 'find their own path' is born of wanting what is best for them, or is it just making convenient excuses because this form of parenting is so much less labour intensive than 'hothousing'. Same goes for discipline. It's convenient to be a liberal parent, but is it really best for the child in the long run.

Peace everyone. P.S. he sometimes gets an octagonal prism confused with a dodecahedron. Bit of work required but he'll get there by 3.

2 of my friends where hothoused. Did very well academically. Very messed up emotionally. Still are and we're all nearly 50.

Because putting pressure on kids to achieve for reflected glory at the expense of their wellbeing and space to learn at their pace is fairly abhorrent.

Perfect pitch is inherent; it cannot be taught. I have it and as far as I know have always had it. Nobody went out of their way to teach it to me. I always naturally gravitated towards anything musical and it is very useful for a violinist. I cannot think why or how anyone could teach it. Also Hot Cross Buns? The most talented pupil l have ever taught started piano lessons at seven. At fourteen he is playing virtuosic pieces. He has been encouraged in every way as he has good parents. This in my book is what good parents do. They encourage but they do not hothouse. True talent will always shine. It can be encouraged but not hothoused. Encouragement is in the child’s best interests. Hothousing is for parents to show off their child and bask in the reflected glory. My brother taught himself to tell the time before he was three by learning as l, three years older, was learning. This is all the way round the clock not only the hours or half pasts. Somewhat different from counting to thirty which is not at all unusual for a reasonably bright two year old. There were many other things he was able to do at an astonishingly young age. Our parents encouraged us to do our best and provided the environment where we could but never forced us. True talent will fly and be allowed to fly and find its own way. Hothousing ultimately leads to stultification.

It's quite possible it's true,

Lol, April fools stops at noon you know.

I went to a hothouse secondary school. Nearly everyone got straight As and a large proportion went to Oxbridge etc. Mental illness was rife, especially depression and eating disorders, and 20 years later, the alumnae (especially the particularly high-achieving ones) are some of the most miserable people I know; anxious, insecure, never satisfied, despite their outward success. I wish I'd gone to a normal school.

My view is it depends on the child and whose needs are being prioritised.

If a child is genuinely curious and is given age-appropriate educational opportunities, there's a culture where the child's voice is heard and the child isn't pressured to keep their views to themselves for fear of upsetting and disappointing the parent then it's probably a broad range of educational experiences that suits the child.

Hothousing is about the parents' needs and the parents' aspirations and the parents' feelings. The children have to do X, Y, Z because it suits the parents. Children are hothoused because the parents want to brag about the test scores, or bore everyone with tales of how exceptional their children are, and the parents want the dinner party conversations, and the parents want to pat themselves on the back for being amazing parents. The child is viewed as an extension of the parents so has to perform in order to avoid disappointing the parents. The child may not complain about it, but they internalise the pressure and know exactly what's expected of them. They're their parents' ultimate accessory.

Yes, exactly. I hope this poster is joking. Otherwise poor dc being drilled at the age of 2

I hope you are joking. I think it is silly to force and put so much effort into a child so young. They should be playing. Why force a dc to learn to count to 100 with so much effort at a young age, when a year or two later they will easily be able to do it on their own? Same with reading. Some parents go crazy trying to teach their dc to read age 3. I on the other hand had more relaxed approach. My dc spent hours in the park, playing, doing art, sport etc. They read when they were ready. I did not push them like crazy. Once they were ready, they started to fly through the books and are both GDS in everything. Maybe you call this lazy parenting, but I call it giving children a childhood! Also, I did not feel like it was being lazy, when I was the one standing and playing with them for hours in the park rain or shine.

My eldest will be going to G&L for secondary, so it has worked out well for us. My middle one is year 4 and doing well in school. Both also excel in their extra curricular activities. My youngest is 3 and she is just enjoying her play time. She does go to nursery that is entirely in a different language, so she is completely fluent like her older two siblings. I seriously hope you are joking about hothousing a two year old!

And there is barely a person on the planet who can’t count to 30 so no advantage there either.

and hot cross buns on the piano..

Think thunder dad was joking. Nobody can seriously think it’s in any way an advantage for a two year old to have perfect pitch 😆