What's wrong with hothousing?

And also the same for boys. They are more likely to develop an healthy interest in things like music, arts, crafts and so forth when educated separately. Until recent history these things were common knowledge. The abolish of boys schools is an attack on boys and men, a deliberate and successful ploy to diminish their confidence and ability. It is true that girls probably do better in single-sex schools too, but the differences are not as drastic compared to boys.

Another aspect of single sex schools is less gendered subject choice. Girls study what they want to. In mixed environments this seems to change. The Institute of Physics has done some interesting work on this.

If I had a girl with gifts in STEM that might swing me towards a girls' school.

There are numerous older studies showing that boys do better educated separately from girls. Even the Guardian seemed to think so back in the day. Obviously this is politically problematic so it is no surprise that a flurry of very unscientific conflicting studies have been released since these findings came to light.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2009/apr/21/girls-boys-english-grades

@waterlego I haven't found any conflicting studies. All studies say that girls are performing better resultwise in single sex schools and boys are better off in mixed schools. But this is about grades. When it comes to psychological impact the studies are saying that single sex school made them shy.

I’m interested in the mixed sex vs single sex schools part of the discussion because whenever I’ve tried to look into it, I’ve found conflicting results from different studies. I don’t think there is a definitive answer.

For me the point in grade exams is to give the child something to work towards. I used to have the idealistic idea that children should learn simply for the pleasure of learning. Then I realised that, even things I enjoy, I don't get very far without attainable goals - emphasis on attainable. It also (admittedly) is reassuring as a parent to see your child progress through the exams and feel like your money is actually going somewhere :)

I know this parent. Very intense in the way they talk about their kids and achievements and honestly extremely draining to listen to.
I've known a few of them. Hot housing sort of parents are like that regardless of their chosen area to hot house.

It's like they need their child to validate they're a great parent and are living through their children's achievements.

There's always a justification of why they simply have to hot house their child but it always sounds fake because it's obvious that it's all about them as a parent.

Parents who are moving with their child to explore their children's abilities and aptitudes don't feel the need to make a huge song and dance about how great they are as parents and how essential it is to hot house.

Also how does this relate to hothousing? Well in order to make your child a native speaker in a language you need to provide an immersive environment where the child hears that language more or less all day long. In many ways hothousing a toddler is simply providing immersion in another language, except that language is music, or memorization, or shape awareness or any number of things. It is normalising fluency in something which is not a language but a skill, so that the child is immersed in it and becomes adept at it as a native speaker does a language.

The thing is with these music exam is that having a Grade 8 in your instrument is sort of the music equivalent to having an A-level in a language. The kids who are really good are something more like native speakers, often playing to the level of a very high grade well before they would be able to pass the exam. Fascinating example is Aimi Kobayashi who could play well beyond grade 8 in terms of technique and musicality at the age of 4 (see on YouTube). When you look at this the whole grade system seems a bit pointless. Still it can be great discipline to sit a music exam, and sometimes a well-needed reality check. I agree with the above posters who have stated that parents who drone on about their child being grade so-and-so at such-and-such an age are tiresome.

@LolaSmiles
"I also saw a lot of other able and talented musicians pushed into doing more and more ensembles, more grades, more theory exams, need to have a solo, need to enter this competition or that one, and it was a hot house sort of environment. A lot of those parents seemed to think it really mattered that their child was better than others, that Jimmy did his grade 8 at whatever age, that Tabitha is already doing music lessons at the regional conservatoire. "

I know this parent. Very intense in the way they talk about their kids and achievements and honestly extremely draining to listen to.

There was a girl in my child’s school who started learning the flute at around 13, got to Grade 8 in two years, and went to a specialist music school at 16. Before that she’d never learned an instrument. My kids’ piano teacher isn’t a concert pianist but he makes a living through composing, performing and teaching, and he put himself through the exams to Grade 8 during his A levels to make it easier to get on a music degree having never done that formal study when younger.

I find music so interesting because practice is obviously vital to excel but, like sport, unless you are really desperate to make it the centre of things, it’s a miserable life to feed someone into. You have to feel you can’t NOT do it.

I don’t know how many posters on this thread watched the various Child Genius documentaries on Channel 4 but I thought they were a fascinating study of the mix of child and parent driven achievement. It also discussed the excellent point that it can be very hard for children who have excelled to become adults and no longer have the identity of being particularly more special than their adult peers. Someone who has done Maths A level at 12 will not necessarily end up ‘better’ at maths than someone who did it at 18 if both have First Class degrees/doctorates/research posts etc. Hard enough to adjust if you’ve been the child desperate to learn early and widely, but if you’ve been pushed by parents, and felt your achievements were what made you special to them, then how must that feel?

@Intergalacticcatharsis The music ones make me laugh. It's very obvious when a young child is genuinely obsessed with music; they do exist. But the pushy mums just make me sad because their kids may well be talented by they end up burnt out by their teenage years.
Some of the most incredible players are those that started quite late but are talented and passionate.

Pushy music parents are really tedious because in the long run, the kids who tend to make it are not always those who had multiple grade 8s before 11. They tend to be those who have genuine passion and real joy for music that is shareable in performances and inspiring to others. The ones I know who made it to conservatoire were often playing rarer instruments at “only” grade 3/4 level when leaving primary but playing really nicely and maturely for their age.

If the kid is really talented, technique can be honed later. What is more important is protecting the joy and the talent and the child’s body - trying to avoid things like terrible back problems, arthritis etc later on by doing lots of good sports to balance like swimming. The other thing that needs protecting is eye sight because young children require lots of time outdoors and natural light on their retinas and complex music is written small for children’s developing eyes.

Sports are a whole other challenge between early success and protection of the body.

Academics/maths etc - parts of the brain don’t fully mature until mid adulthood (mid 20s) I thought for boys in particular so a talented young mathematician need not be pushed - just keeping the joy alive is the aim there. Which I guess can be a challenge in a normal school environment but with dedicated teachers (which many are) often solutions can be found and they can bring in their own enrichment work. One cannot expect a normal state primary school teacher without a maths degree to challenge a really able mathematician fully.

londontimes
If he's just exploring his interests and his parents are facilitating then that's not hothousing to me. In my experience parents in this group tend not to blabber on about how amazing they/their DC are.

Whereas seeing a child likes maths, is good at maths and then piling on more and more and more and rushing to get DC to sit qualifications at young ages would be absolutely hot housing. The parents in this group seem to want everyone under the sun to know that their children are so much better because of all their hard work as parents.

I saw the same in music when I was a child. One of my peers was a excellent musician and substantially more advanced than their peers, but they were allowed to learn, play, compose and enjoy their talents in a way that was very much self-driven with appropriate support. They were never pushed to be front desk or section leader or soloist, and would often be very happy playing in the middle of the section and supporting leading sectionals. You'd never hear their parents making a huge song and dance about what great parents they were for producing such an outstanding musician.

I also saw a lot of other able and talented musicians pushed into doing more and more ensembles, more grades, more theory exams, need to have a solo, need to enter this competition or that one, and it was a hot house sort of environment. A lot of those parents seemed to think it really mattered that their child was better than others, that Jimmy did his grade 8 at whatever age, that Tabitha is already doing music lessons at the regional conservatoire. They were great musicians but it wasn't a healthy culture from their parents at all.

😂😂😂

Nobody is too old to be woke! Look at Joe Biden :)

I assumed that what the mother meant was that he was doing A-Level questions at home for the fun of it, rather than that he was actually going to sit the exam. I agree with you, puting children in for an exam they aren't ready for is a bad idea.

There's what Montessori call the 'sweet spot' where a task isn't too easy (so that the child becomes bored and disengages) or too difficult (so that the child becomes frustrated and gives up). My point is that 'sweet spot' is going to be different for different children, depedning on their talents and interests.

I strongly recommend the movie with Travolta called Phenomenon. Human brain is still a great mystery

That's a shame. I love hearing these stories and thought you would be kind enough to share one or two of the stories with us that you "heard a lot about” from your parent who is a neurologist. Of course I wouldn’t ask you to interview them or search for any links. It’s so much more interesting to hear things that come directly from the doctors themselves (or their children in this case).

@londontimes I didn't say that I am a neurlogist or that I will be spending time interviewing my mothet and copying links. Google is available for everybody. I just said why I find it scary.

Think of the happiest people you know. It is unlikely to be those who were hothoused. They are more likely to be those who are comfortable in their own skin and who have strong relationships. Of course it’s good to try hard but I believe education and upbringing should be about helping the child to find ‘their thing’ and giving positive encouragement rather than pressure.

You sound a bit woke so maybe your ideological prejudices are your source of data. Am I wrong?

Ha, I am far too old to be woke. And yes, you are very wrong about many things.

That's amazing. Please tell me what the findings for these unusual brains are. I am genuinely interested.

I don't think her son is taking exams anytime soon. It's just that his interests are at that level and enjoys it. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that 🤷‍♀️

As much as I am proud to engage in the dreadful no-no which is hothousing, I'm not super keen on exams and accolades. I've taught a lot of piano to kids where the parents are desperate for their child to pass grade so-and-so. Usually the child is only barely at the level where they could make such a pass, and so we needed to spend a whole year slogging away at pieces which are really too difficult and consequently no fun at all.

If my son ever does his grade 8 piano, I'm going to make sure he is well beyond that level first. Same if he was great at maths, I'd probably rather he just learned and learned rather than being put through the meat grinder of passing an A level at a precociously early age.

Hot housing has its own rewards. Much of it is in the incredible and fascinating things that your child can say and do which they would never be able to otherwise. Exams, competitions and so forth have their place but it is better to try to make the learning and ability its own reward.

Although I would say that competitions can be healthy. They can also be very unhealthy. I say this having been through the meat grinder of the piano competition circuit myself and it has its pros and cons. Not sure how I'd feel about my son doing this. I'll guess we'll see when the time comes.