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Original poster

Online lessons because schools can't recruit and retain teachers

187 replies

Hayliebells · 25/02/2023 19:51

A school local to me has written to parents to explain that some science lessons will be via pre-recorded online learning, with students in computer rooms, as they haven't got enough Science teachers to teach all the timetabled lessons. This is where an inability to recruit and retain teachers leads, and it's shameful. We really are a two tier society now, with students in private schools in small classes, taught by specialist teachers, and students in state schools effectively teaching themselves at a computer. Pre-recorded lessons aren't even as good as many schools were offering for online learning during lockdown, it's the opposite of responsive teaching. Where's the opportunity to address misconceptions, to answer the students questions? This is not teaching, and only a minority of students can learn this way. Online lessons are standard in countries like Mexico, for families who cannot afford private schools. They have schools made up of computer suites, with students sat learning via online lessons all day, and staff just there to supervise. This is not just the future of schools in the UK if we carry on as we are, it's happening now. How anyone can think this is OK is beyond me. The government should be ashamed.

OP posts:
Stomacharmeleon · 25/02/2023 22:59

@SummerWinds the children I teach can hardly stay in a classroom and wouldn't be able to access online learning.

quickbathroombreak · 25/02/2023 22:25

Yes agree the conditions are often worse too - no burgundy book, no recognition of union membership, no teachers pension, poorer sick pay provision, no automatic progression up a pay scale with good performance reviews, no going through threshold onto an upper pay scale...

Nimbostratus100 · 25/02/2023 22:11

surreygirl1987 · 25/02/2023 21:52

I disagree with the post above by @quickbathroombreak . I teach in a private school school and have taught in a few over my career. I have always been paid significantly above the state pay scale. I couldn't afford to go back into the state sector. Sure, some private schools pay much lower, but a great many pay significantly over the state sector scale. That's how they get the staff. I'm talking about large established HMC schools here. Pay is very good indeed in many of these - my husband is also a teacher and our household salary is around £120k, which many state school teaching couples could likely not say!

I do agree though that the recruitment crisis is hitting all schools- we have found it difficult to recruit top quality staff in some shortage subjects recently. We have had applicants though, just not the same quality we are used to.

sounds like yours is the exception! There have been strikes over pay and conditions in private schools around here

Perfect28 · 25/02/2023 22:10

A virtual prerecorded lesson comes absolutely no way near a teacher. What happens when the student has a question? Who corrects misunderstandings? How is the more able student challenged? So so naive to suggest pp that this is somehow superior to a qualified teacher standing in front of a class...

Nimbostratus100 · 25/02/2023 22:09

Hayliebells · 25/02/2023 21:25

I'm not sure quite how private schools are irrelevant. With a smaller pool of teachers, private schools find it easier than state schools to attract teachers, precisely because of the tougher working conditions in state schools, due to things like poor behaviour, and the often higher pay in private schools. The behaviour problems that state schools experience, don't really exist in private schools. So therefore, as recruitment is more difficult overall, the best candidates are swollowed up by the private schools, and the state schools are left with the rest, which is often no-one. Private schools may not have the same pool of teachers to choose from as they did a decade ago, but they don't have an actual inability to staff the timetable, like state schools do.

I have not found this to be true, pay and conditions are often worse in private schools, and you don't really have a division between private and state school teachers, the same individuals teach in both sectors throughout their careers, quite often.

I have seen multiple classes combined into huge sports halls, with students all seated at exam tables, so that 4 classes can be covered by 2 teachers, in both state and private schools

Original poster
Hayliebells · 25/02/2023 22:07

Coyoacan · 25/02/2023 21:58

Just to be clear, Mexico has telesecundarias to met the needs of isolated communities not as a standard thing in secondary schools

So do we win the prize for being the first country to move to online learning in bog standard secondary schools? I'm not sure that's a leaderboard we want to be top of....

OP posts:
Original poster
Hayliebells · 25/02/2023 22:04

YellowDots · 25/02/2023 21:48

Confused So who is going to drive the trains, manufacture medications, grow food and work in our prisons while one adult from every household with a school child in it is home with their children?

It's not online learning at home, it's online learning in school. So students sat in a computer room doing online lessons, watching pre-recorded videos, with an adult there for supervision only.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hayliebells · 25/02/2023 21:59

SummerWinds · 25/02/2023 21:39

Online education is the way forward, it's so obvious yet all the closed minded pearl clutchers on here saying how sad, how terrible, etc, yet it can't be any worse that the level it's currently sunk to which is on the brink of collapse.
Young people are more than capable of studying online and achieving fantastic results, thousands of HE students in the UK are already proving that. They are the front runners. They are ones to look to. It's time to move on from the antiquated system that is not preparing our students for the world we live in today. Just because the way we educate our students in school now is the way it's always been done, doesn't mean it's right.
There are so many fantastic tutorials online that with respect will blow most of the present methods of teaching out of the water.
The tide has already started to turn and it will never go back.

I'm not quite sure what young people you are familiar with, but the thousands that I am familiar with, are not capable of learning adequately online. The fact that a university student can do it, isn't really evidence that a 12 year old can! And those university students will be the ones who have actually acquired the necessary grades at GCSE and A-Level, along with the independent learning skills developed throughout their schooling, to access university. The fact you think that the average 11-15 year old should be able to do that same, is laughable. Are we just going to resign those students who don't have the self motivation and skills to learn independently, to the scrap heap?

OP posts:
Coyoacan · 25/02/2023 21:58

Just to be clear, Mexico has telesecundarias to met the needs of isolated communities not as a standard thing in secondary schools

Untitledsquatboulder · 25/02/2023 21:57

At the end of the day there are more of us plebs than there are of the monied elite and we all have 1 vote. I'm not nearly as angry at the scumbag tories as I am at the stupid voters who give them power then start blustering when it turns out they've shot themselves in the foot - again.

Somanycats · 25/02/2023 21:55

SummerWinds · 25/02/2023 21:39

Online education is the way forward, it's so obvious yet all the closed minded pearl clutchers on here saying how sad, how terrible, etc, yet it can't be any worse that the level it's currently sunk to which is on the brink of collapse.
Young people are more than capable of studying online and achieving fantastic results, thousands of HE students in the UK are already proving that. They are the front runners. They are ones to look to. It's time to move on from the antiquated system that is not preparing our students for the world we live in today. Just because the way we educate our students in school now is the way it's always been done, doesn't mean it's right.
There are so many fantastic tutorials online that with respect will blow most of the present methods of teaching out of the water.
The tide has already started to turn and it will never go back.

Yes more teaching will be online - no going back. It could be good. I have no reason think it would be as good as an expert, well paid and rested face to face teacher though.

surreygirl1987 · 25/02/2023 21:52

I disagree with the post above by @quickbathroombreak . I teach in a private school school and have taught in a few over my career. I have always been paid significantly above the state pay scale. I couldn't afford to go back into the state sector. Sure, some private schools pay much lower, but a great many pay significantly over the state sector scale. That's how they get the staff. I'm talking about large established HMC schools here. Pay is very good indeed in many of these - my husband is also a teacher and our household salary is around £120k, which many state school teaching couples could likely not say!

I do agree though that the recruitment crisis is hitting all schools- we have found it difficult to recruit top quality staff in some shortage subjects recently. We have had applicants though, just not the same quality we are used to.

YellowDots · 25/02/2023 21:48

Confused So who is going to drive the trains, manufacture medications, grow food and work in our prisons while one adult from every household with a school child in it is home with their children?

quickbathroombreak · 25/02/2023 21:46

Hayliebells · 25/02/2023 21:25

I'm not sure quite how private schools are irrelevant. With a smaller pool of teachers, private schools find it easier than state schools to attract teachers, precisely because of the tougher working conditions in state schools, due to things like poor behaviour, and the often higher pay in private schools. The behaviour problems that state schools experience, don't really exist in private schools. So therefore, as recruitment is more difficult overall, the best candidates are swollowed up by the private schools, and the state schools are left with the rest, which is often no-one. Private schools may not have the same pool of teachers to choose from as they did a decade ago, but they don't have an actual inability to staff the timetable, like state schools do.

This is not a state vs private issue, and your views do not reflect the situation accurately for many private schools. I teach in a private school, we are massively struggling to recruit teachers. We have been a teacher short in maths, language and science departments since September. We recently had a single application for a post in a different subject. The recruitment and retainment crisis is everywhere.

I also wonder where everyone gets the impression that teachers in private schools are paid more?! Private schools set their own pay scales, which often are not even available for their own staff to see, and also do not have to adhere to pay rises the government recommend. Most teachers I know took a pay-cut when they moved into private education - including myself- as they are so desperate to get away from the shit-show that is state education.

whatwouldAnnaDelveydo · 25/02/2023 21:46

That's exactly the plan, isn't it? As you said, OP, a two-tiered society. The "plebs" will have videos, the elite will receive proper schooling. It was already expected. (And unbelievably sad, of course)

SummerWinds · 25/02/2023 21:39

Online education is the way forward, it's so obvious yet all the closed minded pearl clutchers on here saying how sad, how terrible, etc, yet it can't be any worse that the level it's currently sunk to which is on the brink of collapse.
Young people are more than capable of studying online and achieving fantastic results, thousands of HE students in the UK are already proving that. They are the front runners. They are ones to look to. It's time to move on from the antiquated system that is not preparing our students for the world we live in today. Just because the way we educate our students in school now is the way it's always been done, doesn't mean it's right.
There are so many fantastic tutorials online that with respect will blow most of the present methods of teaching out of the water.
The tide has already started to turn and it will never go back.

Shadowboy · 25/02/2023 21:33

I am a science teacher. 16 years in teaching. I’ve been applying for jobs out of teaching this month. I’ll hopefully be out by summer. I’ve been working over hours because we can’t recruit. It’s burnt me out. SLT don’t seem to have an action plan on how to fill in the gap in the timetable.

Guavafish1 · 25/02/2023 21:31

Teachers in the UK have been treated terribly. It's such a contrast to other countries which is a respected position in society.

This government has eroded public services.. schools, hospitals, dentists, social care... everything has been crumbling.

The trend will continue until we get a new government... thou I'm not sure Labour will be any better.

lilsupersparks · 25/02/2023 21:29

Teachers constantly told to ‘just leave if it’s so bad!’ Well, they did! Now there are no teachers. It’s going to take a long time to recruit new teachers and train them up to the level of experience of the staff who have left.

princesssugarless · 25/02/2023 21:28

A class in my school had 4 supply teachers out of a 5 period day last week. Unfortunately this is not out of the ordinary. Can't recruit, no one turns up for interviews, long term sickness. Issues carry over as behaviour is worse for supply/ they don't know the kids or the rules like permanent teachers (not slating supply - lots of them are truly amazing people) it can't be long before we go to in school virtual learning I don't think. Science is an issue here too.

I have taught for nearly 20 years and I have never seen it this bad .

Original poster
Hayliebells · 25/02/2023 21:25

I'm not sure quite how private schools are irrelevant. With a smaller pool of teachers, private schools find it easier than state schools to attract teachers, precisely because of the tougher working conditions in state schools, due to things like poor behaviour, and the often higher pay in private schools. The behaviour problems that state schools experience, don't really exist in private schools. So therefore, as recruitment is more difficult overall, the best candidates are swollowed up by the private schools, and the state schools are left with the rest, which is often no-one. Private schools may not have the same pool of teachers to choose from as they did a decade ago, but they don't have an actual inability to staff the timetable, like state schools do.

OP posts:
Littlebluedinosaur · 25/02/2023 21:20

I left recently. The workload was affecting my own family, the behaviour of a minority of children is appalling (primary) and I was expected to accept being hit and kicked, the media bashing of teachers during the pandemic was appalling. I’m now WFH in a very flexible job and only took a small pay cut. Worth every penny of that pay cut.

anunlikelyseahorse · 25/02/2023 21:13

Private schools are irrelevant in this context, as presumably a shortage of teachers will mean a shortage in private, grammar and bog standard secondaries? The reason for teacher shortages is 3 fold 1) working conditions 2) poor pay 3) teaching is now largely behaviour management which is soul destroying if you went into teaching hoping to impart knowledge and inspire the next generation.
Ds goes to a mainstream secondary in a bog standard market town, just over a 1000 students. His class no longer do any science experiments due to unruly behaviour. He'd probably learn more online, maybe at home though!
Most of my friends have left the teaching profession largely due to behaviour, one friend is clinging on by the skin of her teeth, and on,y because she feels really well supported by the SLT and work colleagues. But she has said behaviour from the kids has nose dived and aggression from parents has sky rocketed since covid. She's very bleak about the future, and feels if behaviour isn't tackled at a government level then the situation is only going to get worse.

Original poster
Hayliebells · 25/02/2023 21:04

Yes, the working conditions in some schools are really difficult, due to the behaviour of some students and parents. Those schools still need staff though, we still need to persuade teachers to work in those schools. The more difficult the conditions, the more they need persuading.

OP posts:
MoreCatsPlease · 25/02/2023 20:55

It isnt just the government here though, is it?

I used to be a teacher, and I left because of the behavior of the pupils and parents. I was threatened with violence by several students, and then their parents when I reported said students. The kids have the upper hand when it comes to "rights".