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Online lessons because schools can't recruit and retain teachers

187 replies

Hayliebells · 25/02/2023 19:51

A school local to me has written to parents to explain that some science lessons will be via pre-recorded online learning, with students in computer rooms, as they haven't got enough Science teachers to teach all the timetabled lessons. This is where an inability to recruit and retain teachers leads, and it's shameful. We really are a two tier society now, with students in private schools in small classes, taught by specialist teachers, and students in state schools effectively teaching themselves at a computer. Pre-recorded lessons aren't even as good as many schools were offering for online learning during lockdown, it's the opposite of responsive teaching. Where's the opportunity to address misconceptions, to answer the students questions? This is not teaching, and only a minority of students can learn this way. Online lessons are standard in countries like Mexico, for families who cannot afford private schools. They have schools made up of computer suites, with students sat learning via online lessons all day, and staff just there to supervise. This is not just the future of schools in the UK if we carry on as we are, it's happening now. How anyone can think this is OK is beyond me. The government should be ashamed.

OP posts:
JewelLane · 26/02/2023 13:23

Hayliebells · 25/02/2023 21:59

I'm not quite sure what young people you are familiar with, but the thousands that I am familiar with, are not capable of learning adequately online. The fact that a university student can do it, isn't really evidence that a 12 year old can! And those university students will be the ones who have actually acquired the necessary grades at GCSE and A-Level, along with the independent learning skills developed throughout their schooling, to access university. The fact you think that the average 11-15 year old should be able to do that same, is laughable. Are we just going to resign those students who don't have the self motivation and skills to learn independently, to the scrap heap?

Just might be harder to deliver than assumed😉

Education is in crisis.
www.independent.co.uk/news/education/schools-toilet-protest-riot-uk-b2288977.html?amp

Can't see these kids ( and know that the Arrete Trust school in Richmond is in a decent catchment) sitting watching videos....

And what about practical learning, especially for science subjects...shocking to think that education is going to be reduced to online learning for those that will access it. 😞

Hayliebells · 26/02/2023 13:22

OhBeAFineGuyKissMe · 26/02/2023 12:43

A lot of schools can employ unqualified teachers (I.e. without QTS) not just private. They even have their own payscale. www.nasuwt.org.uk/advice/pay-pensions/pay-scales/england-pay-scales.html

Yes, most schools are Academies, and most can employ unqualified teachers. What schools are finding is that they can't even get unqualified teachers, they can't get anyone, so they resort to recorded lessons instead.

OP posts:
Piggywaspushed · 26/02/2023 12:57

Oh, and by STEM no one ever actually means the T...

Piggywaspushed · 26/02/2023 12:57

We only 'need' physics teachers because someone decided all students have to study all three sciences at GCSE. What about English? PE? RS ? Primary teachers? All compulsory.

What about class sizes as a factor? Marking load? Extra curricular?

MN seems blind to it but there are shortages in most subjects and incoming recruitment shortages in English.

DancingOnThinIce73 · 26/02/2023 12:45

OhBeAFineGuyKissMe · 26/02/2023 09:46

Controversial opinion: I think we need to discuss paying teachers different rates. STEM teachers can earn significantly more outside of teaching, so teaching is less attractive. Other subjects teaching pay is greater than non-teaching pay, so makes teaching more attractive.

It isn’t a coincidence that science and maths are the hardest subjects to recruit. They have been falling behind recruitment targets for new teachers for years. I have a PhD in physics,I choose to teach as I do love it, but I know I could be earning a shit load more elsewhere. If I stop loving it, I am going to go.

Pay in demand subjects more. Pay shortage locations more. Pay more expensive areas more (not just London weighting). 1 national payscale is too clumsy.

I also do teach in a private school, as I was fed up with not having the right equipment, class sizes too big to be safe (34 in a practical subject is too many, Scotland limits to 25!). And a big one for me, I can teach in specialism, as my subject knowledge is valued, unlike state where I would be asked to teach all 3 sciences, where I do not have that knowledge base.

Very much agree with this. I’m sorry, but a GCSE physics teacher shouldn’t be paid the same as the Classical Civilisation teacher. To put it bluntly, one we need the other is nice to have and their respective salary should reflect that.

OhBeAFineGuyKissMe · 26/02/2023 12:43

A lot of schools can employ unqualified teachers (I.e. without QTS) not just private. They even have their own payscale. www.nasuwt.org.uk/advice/pay-pensions/pay-scales/england-pay-scales.html

Online lessons because schools can't recruit and retain teachers
Eatentoomanyroses · 26/02/2023 12:32

Teachers need better pay and conditions because the job is a horrendous one. I got out after teaching for over fifteen years. I don’t miss it

Hayliebells · 26/02/2023 12:31

Grumpybutfunny · 26/02/2023 12:20

You would be surprised you can teach in independent without QTS. We are considering private vs moving house (it's one or the other potentially both) and it's one of the things that has interested me. I also wonder if state schools could set up some kind of skills share with local businesses releasing qualified staff to teach subject specifics to higher sets. I've been thinking about lecturing recently, but would have no interest in teaching a disruptive lower set or in a school with behaviour problems.

Where would the incentive be for the local business person to learn the teaching skills, and the exam specification though? Such a professional couldn't just stand up in front of a room full of teenagers and talk to them about X, even if the students were perfectly behaved. We don't have time in the curriculum to deviate from the exam spec, there'd be so much that such a professional would include that wasn't needed, and likely a lot that they'd miss out. Are they going to learn the spec and study past paper materials before delivering these lectures? Why would they do that, when it's not their job?

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 26/02/2023 12:29

I also wonder if state schools could set up some kind of skills share with local businesses releasing qualified staff to teach subject specifics to higher sets

What do you mean by ‘qualified’? I suspect you don’t mean qualified as a teacher.

Lecturing even a top set will lead to poor behaviour. Teaching is a skill in addition to subject knowledge.

GCAcademic · 26/02/2023 12:25

Rishi can do little about it, and I don’t blame him for putting his daughters in a private school. The unholy alliance of gentle parenting, neglectful parenting and “my rights” has raised a generation that is unteachable. You only have to look at thread after thread on here to see the lack of support that teachers get from the “my child can do no wrong” posters. Then combine that with the parents who are actively abusive, kids who are violent, and now rioting in schools, ffs. It wouldn’t matter how good the pay was, I’d never set foot in a school. It’s bad enough teaching the no-consequences generation as university students.

I do think some parents need to take a look at themselves and ask themselves why teachers are running a mile from them and their kids.

Grumpybutfunny · 26/02/2023 12:20

Thesharkradar · 26/02/2023 12:13

They don't care though. Why would Rishi care when his daughter goes to Wycombe Abbey? She'll never have this issue, or being taught by someone not qualified in the subject, because its the only person they can get
Because wealthy people need educated people to staff the businesses and services that make them wealthy...

You would be surprised you can teach in independent without QTS. We are considering private vs moving house (it's one or the other potentially both) and it's one of the things that has interested me. I also wonder if state schools could set up some kind of skills share with local businesses releasing qualified staff to teach subject specifics to higher sets. I've been thinking about lecturing recently, but would have no interest in teaching a disruptive lower set or in a school with behaviour problems.

Piggywaspushed · 26/02/2023 12:18

BungleandGeorge · 26/02/2023 11:54

@Eudaimonia5 which careers do you think pay significantly more to a new starter? 23k plus 5 weeks holiday is pretty typical for a graduate

My DS is possibly about to embark on a two year postgraduate traineeship. So paid for training. Local Government.
29k.

Iamnotthe1 · 26/02/2023 12:16

DoesItMakeYouFeelBetter · 26/02/2023 12:10

Chances are that at least one of your child’s teachers is not a subject specialist, and you won’t know about it. The recruitment issue has been going on for a while now.

Chances are at least one of your child's teachers is not a teacher, let alone a subject specialist.

My friend works as a cover supervisor in a large secondary school. He is the only maths teacher some students have had, including one class he has taught all the way up to Y10. He isn't a qualified teacher and actually failed his own maths GCSE back in the day.

A couple of years ago, one of the kids I know that attends a local school was stressed out about his Spanish GCSE oral exam. Not surprising given that, in the 5 years leading up to that point, his class had never had a Spanish-speaking teacher, just covers who didn't speak the language.

Thesharkradar · 26/02/2023 12:13

They don't care though. Why would Rishi care when his daughter goes to Wycombe Abbey? She'll never have this issue, or being taught by someone not qualified in the subject, because its the only person they can get
Because wealthy people need educated people to staff the businesses and services that make them wealthy...

DoesItMakeYouFeelBetter · 26/02/2023 12:10

Chances are that at least one of your child’s teachers is not a subject specialist, and you won’t know about it. The recruitment issue has been going on for a while now.

HedwigIsMyDemon · 26/02/2023 12:06

@noblegiraffe absolutely - and even those who are persuaded into the profession soon leave. The drop out rate for NQTs is horrific 😩.

HedwigIsMyDemon · 26/02/2023 12:05

@Commah thats £15k for one child! Most people don’t have one child. We couldn’t possibly afford £30k a year! We have no choice but to use state education. We are not “poor” just not wealthy enough for this government clearly 🙄.

noblegiraffe · 26/02/2023 12:04

Our state school in a nice area has great teachers and sufficient staffing.

Even if it does now (which I am dubious about tbh), will it next year given that the number of trainees currently is just 59% of what is actually needed for secondary schools hiring for September?

It’s £28k starting salary btw. And despite that and the holidays, graduates are choosing to do other things.

HedwigIsMyDemon · 26/02/2023 12:03

Behaviour and parenting. I say it time ans again but those who are not teachers disagree.

They don’t see it. They are almost certainly the same parents who believe everything their kids say. They’re a nightmare to deal with as a teacher.

I left teaching, a job I loved, and most of my friends are either done or looking for an exit. Education in this country is fucked.

BungleandGeorge · 26/02/2023 11:57

I think you’re wrong to make this state v private. Our state school in a nice area has great teachers and sufficient staffing. It’s far more nuanced than that.

BungleandGeorge · 26/02/2023 11:54

@Eudaimonia5 which careers do you think pay significantly more to a new starter? 23k plus 5 weeks holiday is pretty typical for a graduate

Commah · 26/02/2023 11:45

YukoandHiro · 26/02/2023 10:06

"It’s going to lead to negative effects on children’s lifestyles, as parents scrimp and stretch to afford private education because state schools are so bad."

Possibly, that only applies to a fraction of a fraction of the population. I wouldn't spend any time worrying about it.

Let's address the actual problem instead

I disagree. A lot of people could scrape together 10-15k a year if they cancelled literally everything else. Middle class parents will bankrupt themselves to pay for private school if state school becomes unviable. They will cut all treats and days out, cancel extra curricular activities like sport and music, stop going on holidays, work evenings and weekends for extra cash, reduce the quality of their diet, maybe downsize their house or put their home at risk by remortgaging. Kids and parents lives will be shit, the people who made a living from providing tourism and hobbies and treats will lose their income. And state schools will become solely for the poor, so won’t be a nice place to be at all.

Mindyourfingers · 26/02/2023 11:34

Is there a link to this?

I would think at least local press would have picked it up.

user79620 · 26/02/2023 11:31

Plus, what happens with all the other things that kids do at school? The sport, the drama, the music, the human interaction with both teachers and other children? School is not just all about learning algebra. Increasingly, in fact, that's what parents are choosing to pay for in the private sector - among the parents we see coming to us, there's a recognition that a properly funded education, free from government and Ofsted control, is about so much more than getting your three As and your university place. We have more demand than ever before, from people dissatisfied with what they're getting from the state sector, and worried about how things might go in future. (Of course, that's only unfortunately open to a small percentage who can either afford fees or access bursaries.)

noblegiraffe · 26/02/2023 10:47

You will note that was a teacher planning a lesson for sixth form.

The model assumes that children will be motivated to engage with the platform.

An awful lot of teaching at the moment involves getting the kids to actually do the work.