Over zealous school discipline

@creamybun some students use trips to the bathroom to vape; it's a particular issue in my DS' school. Frequent toilet visits can be a sign of this.

Yes, I’ve also experienced my DD being told she couldn’t go home when ill. Even when I called ahead and said I was collecting her, the receptionist tried to claim that I wasn’t “allowed to take her without the agreement of the head of year”. Erm, I’m her parent. I did take her home, and she was very poorly. They seem to believe the worst of all children until proven otherwise. Really sad.

CherryBlossom321 that's horrific! I understand that schools have an extremely difficult task of trying to maintain some kind of order and level of behaviour but it's a draconian approach.

My DGS was feeling ill the other day and texted his Mum. She told him to go to student reception and someone would collect him. The tutor refused to let him go, so his Mum told him to call her and put his phone on his pocket and ask again . The tutor refused and my Dd could hear the conversation. She was furious and DGS gave the phone to his tutor who hastily apologised. She then got an email with a further apology, saying that perhaps they need to review their student sickness policy. It's disgraceful that she had to resort to such a underhand method to get her child put of school who was clearly ill.

The toilet policing is extreme. My daughter got repeated STI’s in primary school and we couldn’t understand why, until she explained that she was repeatedly refused access to the toilet. I was furious, and wrote a strongly worded complaint backed up by a doctor’s note. It never happened again, but she has kidney scarring.

More recently in her secondary school, a poor girl was refused access to the toilet when she needed to change her pad and had to suffer the humiliation of leaking during the lesson. It’s a horrible way to operate.

We have a rising mental health epidemic amongst young people, tens of thousands experiencing emotionally based school avoidance, and increasing numbers also being deregistered, and electively home educated. There is a big problem in our education system.

There is sense in logging toilet visits, because then they pick up whether it's a one-off (fair enough - they should be using breaks, but everyone forgets sometimes) or happening several times a week. What should be done with that information is another matter. If it's genuine medical need, then the parents should be encouraged to get it checked out with the GP. If it's that the kid is struggling to keep it together in lessons, that needs investigating too. If it's that he just likes an extra break or has arranged to meet his friends, then it needs to stop.
Logging also helps if there is vandalism during lesson time - they can see who it might be.

(I taught a kid who asked to use the toilet in every double lesson. I spoke to the school nurse, who had him in to check if there was a medical reason. It never happened again!)

Same at my DGS school, to the point he was refused a toilet visit last week and wet himself walking home. At first he was too embarrassed to tell his Mum. Surely its a basic human right to use tge bathroom??

I understand the importance of keeping the unruly students in check. But it's not OK if the always well-behaved children are scared to go to school. Surely there's a happy medium. I'm a primary teacher, which I know is different, but I manage to be strict with the children who need firm boundaries without scaring the ones who don't.

Also, secondary school classes are so large now, often the only way things like practical work can be done is if there is mass compliance and strict discipline. My largest science class last year was 34 students.

If you have 34 students e.g. using bunsen burners, and one decides to mess around a bit, what do you think happens?

For those who think some level of "backchat" should be allowed, you do need to bear in mind teachers are people too, and they have a right to work in an environment which isn't causing them additional stress and isn't abusive.

It is very stressful to work in an environment where students argue or are rude over every little thing.

I think sending details of toilet breaks is a bit weird, though.

I wonder if part of the problem is that the school report everything - so it’s difficult to tell when it is a big deal. Loo visits and being late to class may actually be minor (unless the boy is extremely late very often).

I agree with you OP. Secondary schools are very close to prison with all their rules. I would hate to go to work with that level of scrutiny from my boss but kids seems to have to put up and shut up. The system needs to change.

Being late to class and back chatting causes disruption to the teacher and the other 29 students who want to learn. High jinx in the playground takes teacher time away from other jobs and students. I'm pleased your teachers are pulling you and your child up on these things. These rules apply in my kids high school and make life much more pleasant for every other student.

Yes exactly the same @Forever42 - happy kid in primary and then secondary broke her. They are harsh to keep the optimum crowd control but it’s too much for well-behaved conscientious kids. It just causes perpetual fear and anxiety.

I don’t know where you’d move her though - they’re all the same. My dd’s secondary was a highly rated church school that prided itself on its pastoral care. Ironically.

I'm sorry to hear that. Sounds so similar to my DD. Maybe I should try to move her 😔.

We don't have spreadsheets but my DD's school is ridiculously strict and hands out detentions for the most minor infractions. DD is quiet and sensitive but was perfectly happy at primary school. She is now anxious, withdrawn and on the verge of school refusal. She is too frightened to say a word in class (then the teachers complain about that of course). We've tried to access pastoral support but it's virtually non-existent.

My kids school is not like this. I agree with you. This level of micromanaging/ reporting creates a default 'kids are little shits' attitude and doesn't allow them to take responsibility for themselves at all as well as being a dreary easy to live. I can see mine is the minority opinion though.

FWIW I agree with you op.

They treat young people like machines and no wonder the mental health stats are terrible. School should be a place to feel safe, have a laugh with your mates, learn from teachers who respect children and deal wisely with the odd bit of normal teenage (human) backchat.

My dd - who was a compliant, sensitive, bright child was completely destroyed by her secondary school which operated like yours op. She left broken, and it put her off education for life. This child who never said boo to a goose, dutifully did all her homework, got the highest grades in her SATS, scraped 9 GCSEs a-c and at 21 is unemployed and uncertain about adult life. The rot set in at secondary school. She’s never recovered.

Homestly if you are getting phonecalls - zoom meetings. There are an issue with you dc..

Do you think they have time to feequently contact every parent constantly about there child.

My ds has Adhd. I have recieved the odd phonecall/ email over issues, but have taken them seriously. Tried to work out solutions not got agro with the school.

Ah. I see. That changes everything. Clearly, since it's Scotland, there shouldn't be any discipline.

You asked for opinions, and have a tantrum when you don't get everyone lining up to agree with you? Perhaps you might reflect on your child's backchat and where they learned that trait? You aren't "suffering" - certainly not in slience either. You are being apprised of your child's behaviour and conduct in school. If that doesn't suit you, then you are at liberty to find a school more to your liking, or homeschool. But being told how your child behaves at school isn't anything like "suffering*

Also in Scotland.

In ds's 6 years in secondary I had one letter letting me know he had been consistently late for classes. Asked ds and he said he could only remember 2 instances, once was due to previous lessons teacher keeping them late the other he and some friends mistimed getting back from lunch. Phoned school to check his side and they matched, guidance teacher said it was an automatic letter and not to worry about it. Told ds to watch his lunchtime timing.

Second was a phone call for encouraging another pupil who was back chatting by over dramatically laughing. Apologised on his behalf and had very strong words with ds.

We didnt get spreadsheets but if ds was regularly disrupting lessons doing all those things regularly I would want to know about it so i could support the school and nip deterioting behaviour in the bud, so I dont think it is necessarily a bad thing.

We record all that info in an app for parents to see. Toilet trips are logged as some go to the toilet every lesson, not to use the toilet but to meet up with friends or just generally avoid learning. If we know we can help. Trust me teachers don't have time to phone home for 'hi jinx'. If you are getting a phone call either learning is being disrupted or behaviour is becoming dangerous. Back chat is never acceptable, chatting maybe depending on the circumstances. Just be aware that your attitude towards school at home is generally what we are coming back in with your child. "My mum says she doesn't care if you phone her/send emails/book a meeting" meaning the child rarely cares either

Backchat is a big deal.

I have a Y10 & Y12, and older stepsons too. All four of them have been told off over the years of chatting in class. But none of them ever for backchat.

There’s a difference between being a non robotic normal kid who needs to be told they’re talking at the wrong time, and your child who is actually being directly rude to a teacher.

I’d want to be called about backchat.

I’m not in favour of being sent toilet break info. My guess here would be that the school is using the same app to log attendance, loo breaks, behaviour points… and so what’s being sent out is an amalgamation of all the data. I think they’re basically spamming the loo data, rather than actually expecting you to act on it.

That said, if I received it and saw that my child was repeatedly out for loo breaks, I’d be asking them why.

I hope your perfect little robots don’t dare act like children
This is a total overreaction.

Well behaved children are not robots. They're children who display perfectly standard child behaviour.

As schools staff don't have time to call home for every moment of backchat
There's usually warnings within the behaviour policies and during the day sanctions before a phonecall happens. If you're getting multiple phonecalls from school I would imagine your child's behaviour isn't acceptable.

Thinking about schools I've worked in that means I child with a 5 lesson day could back chat a teacher 15 times in a school day and still not meet the threshold for a phone call. The children in the same class as that child have had 15 interruptions to their learning from one pupil alone.

Sucessinthenewyear
I've noticed a similar trend as well.
When parents and school work together, the child is well supported. When parents undermine the school and minimise their children's behaviour, the child learns they can play home off against school.

Op I was a classroom teacher and I agree with you, a spreadsheet detailing toilet breaks sounds very over the top.

Otoh back chat in class is annoying and disruptive. Your op does sound a bit as tho you are minimising this, and issues such as being late for lessons. If you are able tk support the school on this and make sure your child knows that, it would be positive for all.

I recall ringing a parent zbout their child's behaviour (not a thing I did lightly tbh) and got the response "well its just chatting, it's not just them, we don't care about German" - unfortunately that told me what I needed to know.