How pressured / full on is QE boys?

Is that a problem though?

If a "particular ethnic group" values admission to certain types of schools more highly (than presumably some other group), willing to put in more effort, and succeed disproportionately more in entrance exams, why is that "regrettable"?

Would you rather have quotas by ethnicity instead?

It's not difficult to comprehend that a particular ethnic group plays a significant role in driving this competitive environment. When individuals come from densely populated ethnic backgrounds, they often contribute to the perpetuation of this competitiveness. It's not a complex matter, but regrettably, they also influence others to participate in it.

The paper you shared refers to one such that I am reading at the moment.

https://econ.lse.ac.uk/staff/spischke/peers_final.pdf
It concludes -
Peer effects are potentially a major input into the process of educational
production but are difficult to estimate empirically. We estimate peer effects across classes within primary schools and argue that classes within schools are formed randomly with respect to family background. We find that a one standard deviation change in our student background measure of peer composition leads to a 0.17 standard deviation change in reading test scores of fourth graders across our sample of six European countries. This is slightly larger than most previous estimates in the literature.

This is not really my area, so I cannot cite a body of literature backing my point. But as the original paper you linked clearly mention in its conclusion, "other studies reporting a strong association between group averages and individual outcomes"

The authors of the paper you linked are well known economists. If they say other studies exist that found the opposite to what they found, I am happy to believe that such studies exist.

I don't really have the time or interest to invest tens of hours reading up all the papers in this area, but fairly certain there will be papers claiming different things.

"Can these results be reconciled with those of other studies reporting a strong
association between group averages and individual outcomes?"

How many other peer reviewed research you have seen on selective school context that suggest otherwise? With or without similar citation factors?

As you said, it is a perception or illusion rather than hard fact that back by scientific evidence.

That maybe so, or may not (I haven't read the full paper, thank for the share!)

But a ten year old paper published in Econometrica using fuzzy regression discontinuity investigating school outcomes in Boston and New York city is unlikely to sway opinion of parents who send (or try to send) their DC to schools like QE boys.

Most parents base their decisions on perceptions, personal experience, 'gut feeling' and what other parents are doing. Going by that, for many, having their DC in a motivated peer group with low class disruption is desirable. Most people don't live by econometrics article.

That said, the article itself is less clear cut in its conclusion (like most good papers of this type are). Copying from the paper (emphasis mine)

Of course, test scores and peer effects are only part of the exam school
story. It may be that preparation for exam school entrance is itself worth-
while. The RD design captures the impact of peer composition and possibly
other changes at admissions cutoffs, while ignoring effects common to appli-
cants on both sides. Likewise, unique features of an exam school education
may boost achievement in specific subject areas. Students who attend Boston
Latin School almost certainly learn more Latin than they would have other-
wise. The many clubs and activities found at some exam schools may expose
students to ideas and concepts not easily captured by achievement tests or our
post-secondary outcomes. It is also possible that exam school graduates earn
higher wages, a question we plan to explore in future work. Still, the estimates
reported here suggest that any labor market gains are likely to come through
channels other than peer composition and increased cognitive achievement.
Can these results be reconciled with those of other studies reporting a strong
association between group averages and individual outcomes? Every context is
different, and the absence of peer effects in one setting does not prove that
such effects are unimportant elsewhere.

"On average, result in a school where most are highly motivated and hardworking will be better, all else equal"

I read some dedicated research literature on highly selective schools concludes that such peer effect does not exist.
**
https://blueprintlabs.mit.edu/research/do-elite-exam-schools-add-value/

Because the individuals are already motivated and hardworking.

Possibly for some. But many more will be driven to work harder. On average, result in a school where most are highly motivated and hardworking will be better, all else equal. If it's primarily good results one is after, choosing a peer group with similar ambition makes sense.

Would a high pressure peer group (parents and children) have a potential negative effect on some children too?

I just don't understand why some parents insist on pushing their kids through this when they could achieve the same results in any school.

Because that's not necessarily true.

While the theory that an academically able child does not have to go to a highly selective school to do well, it is also true that not all schools are equal in terms of educational outcome.

If the alternative to a highly selective school with stellar result is another with low value add and relatively poor results, many parents wouldn't like to take a chance with the 2nd school.

In addition, good peer group matters. All else equal, result in a school with highly motivated children and parents and low class disruptions will be better. Some parents try to select that type of peer group.

Also, fear of missing out probably plays a part. If everyone is doing it, it takes a lot of confidence in yourself and your DC to ignore all that and not join the race.

Wow, I completely agree with this "But those high results are because of the selection of students who were tutored and had a high propensity to continue tutoring. These schools’ results are not necessarily because of any value added by these schools. " It's so straightforward, right? I just don't understand why some parents insist on pushing their kids through this when they could achieve the same results in any school.

No

Thanks PreplexJ , Do you have an DS at wilson or QE to share your experiences

Wilson GCSE result this year overtook QE for the first time. Given its intake is not as difficult as QE it comes with a bit surprised.

Any new feed back from Parents of QE boys - Experiences.
How has year 7 been. ? Are the kids enjoing their Stay at QE? Was home work taking 2-3 hours every day or just 1 hour

When I went to the open day, one of the boys stated they do GSCE syllabus a year in advance. Was a bit surprised. This was in Science / Biology I think.
I know this is a QE thread. Have parents been in the difficult path of chooseing between WIlson and QE and landed up choosinf QE and are happy with their choice. We are renting and can move anywhere.

Amazing school indeed. I think its so wrong to say that the kids are highly tutored. I remeber my son doing a project using C programming language for his robotics project when he was in year 7/8. He learnt and did whole project himself without any external help (didn't even ask for my help as I work in same domain professionally). The discipline and work ethics it develops is amazing while providing a very safe, sporty and a well rounded life beyond books.

My son went to primary school with some very bright boys and they did as well as him , if not better at the local comp. So yes, you are right.

I was happy to send him to QE because I thought he would learn he is not the smartest boy in the school and that he needs to work. I knew the other boys would catch him up and then overtake him with their superior work ethic. It didn’t work - he is still really rather lazy! There was never much work out of school.

To me the advantages are 1) the teachers are very inspiring & there’s none of this constant supply teacher nonsense 2) the facilities are excellent 3) no drink and drugs party culture like at the local comp 4) it’s got a touch of the Hogwarts (which I think is very appealing to South Asian contingent) 5) no slacking culture (eg no early stop on a Friday, no snow days, every opportunity to learn is taken)

Something for any parent to consider, is the impact of the parent body rather than he school itself.

QE itself won’t be imposing undue pressure (clearly there will be some and high expectations…. but not unnecessarily so) - the daft pressures to work ridiculous hours etc or to give up clubs is driven by parents and can be fed through into the culture of the boys themselves. There’s some of this in most academic schools, but when it’s very widespread amongst parents and to a significant level (consider the level of prep and length of time it was fine over for most of the boys to get in at 11) then it’s worth considering if your own family attitude fits with this….or whether you will be out of step and not feel comfortable.

It is likely that the vast majority of boys who go there are extremely bright and able to thrive and do really well. If you’re concerned it might be too full-on or pressured, you might not be starting with the mindset if the majority of parents. Many actively want pressure and being full on and often think the school doesn’t do that enough…..so do it from home.

One last thing….even QE has boys who don’t get L8/9 in GCSEs or A/A* in A Levels. Their figures are of course extremely impressive, but there are a number of schools with similar great results. A very bright boy who could go to QE can get equal results in any of those other top performing schools…..which might have quite a different culture and where the grades are achieved without quite so many hours out in ….possibly one you feel more comfortable with.

Some people choose to send their boy on a long long journey each day to go to QE, meaning he almost goes past another very good school. They choose because QE scores 2% more at L7-9 GCSE or A and Astar at A Level.The other school is churning out vast numbers of top grades too.

Perhaps it’s a badge of honour for some parents to have their boy at QE - known to be the top state school, but also known for the extreme work ethic of most boys. It might be a source of pride to them that their boy works X hours at the weekend and each holiday day. But of course, that isn’t actually needed to secure top GCSE results. Many kids get top results in other schools without nearly that level of work, because in the end, GCSEs are not that high a level for very bright students.

@jitteryquick one need to subscribe for full list

That list is really interesting! Do you have any way to see the full list of 80?

@mellicauli or they are over tutored and main moto is score 100% n other rings doesn’t matter as much

see this , there is no such thing as special type of kids are cut for QE . Other kids at other schools are doing good too .

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-oxbridge-files-which-schools-get-the-most-pupils-in1/

Sorry. That's just not true. They aren't on anxious mode. These are bright, bright kids who are several years above average in their attainment. The main problem is that they find GCSEs boring because they offer no challenge.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I've now had better understanding of why people maybe put off by QE alike. It is hard to escape if the social environment is on the highly anxious mode. Good luck with your choice & maybe at secondary age, your son could have some more input too!

Motherparent19 it may be difficult but you learn to ignore it. I'm paying a lot for my kids to go to a school I'm happy with, I'm not paying more for tutoring they don't need.

If your school teaching isn't good, or your child has a particular issue, fair enough but it's unnecessary otherwise. Their school does push them hard so having time to unwind and play sport has been much more positive on the results they've achieved than having extra tutoring.

That said, there's a hardcore group of uber-competitive parents and I think the primary school tutoring (general, not to pass an entrance exam) becomes a herd mentality of fearing they're missing out. Our prep school senior staff tried their best to discourage it but it's quite ingrained for some parents. And the endless emails to staff as to why their child didn't have the lead role in the play, wasn't picked for the cricket team, wasn't a prefect. You have to feel for the teachers. There was no shame at times!