Child working at "expected" ; anyone's DC working at expected pass the 11plus?

@TheRubyRedshoes As you will already know, the VR element is 50% of the test. My DD was much stronger in the NVR and maths sections but they are only 25% each.

If she is consistently getting 80% plus in VR then she’ll probably be fine. 70% at this time (once familiar with the question types) and she should be able to make up the difference by September. Working around 50% and the gap is probably too large.

We didn’t formally tutor for the 11+. We did books at home from about now and took a light touch as I believe that if she’d needed huge amounts of tutoring to get in then it wasn’t the right place for her. We were the only parents at her school (prep) not formally tutoring and the head told us we were very brave. He also said that the most a child usually makes up with tutoring is 10%. Have no idea where he got his stats from. The huge benefit we had was the school was supportive and gave guidance, although did not offer any specific tuition as they were a partner school.

They were very honest with parents about their child’s suitability for grammar. Some chose to ignore that and those were the ones who failed.

We worked on exam technique mainly. Speed, accuracy, time keeping and missing out questions and going back to them. She passed with flying colours.

Oh and the SEN provision at our local comp is fantastic. Grammar none existent.

I second that it’s a good idea to speak to her current school as to whether they think she’d cope. Our school was very helpful with DS when we were trying to work out whether to appeal. They can give you a good indication of where they think your child is at and what school will suit them. I became so focused on getting DS in to the grammar on appeal that I lost sight of what was best for him. And what kind of child he is.

We’re in Bucks. Places are very competitive with children out of county applying for places. It wasn’t the top 25% in our (very good) primary only a few passed - 10 out of 90. Now it depends on the cohort and the school but they definitely need to be very clearly working at the top of their primary class. You also have all the local private schools actually teaching the 11+ so that increases competition.

But it does vary year on year. The year before a good 30% passed at our school.

Assuming you are in Bucks given you mentioned the 121.

As a general rule, the “top” 25% of Bucks children will pass the test. Arguably this includes a number of children who have been so heavily tutored they manage to artificially elevate themselves (but then struggle once they’re there), but on the whole the brightest children are the ones who pass.

You must have a vague idea of where your daughter sits in her cohort. It sounds like she’s way off the top of the class, but where does your gut tell you she sits? Higher end of average then you have nothing to lose in trying. Slap bang in the middle or below and it might be a step too far.

Without an EHCP or medical diagnosis then there will be no adjustments made for her in the testing process. Her current school will have to submit “suitability for grammar” scores prior to the tests. These are used in cases of selection review. Look at the relevant section of the council website for the detail.

www.buckinghamshire.gov.uk/schools-and-learning/schools-index/school-admissions/school-admissions-guides-policies-and-statistics/guide-to-grammar-schools-and-the-secondary-school-transfer-test-11-plus/selection-review/

I would recommend a meeting with her current school to go through how they would most likely categorise her based on her current academic performance.

Please be realistic. SEN or no SEN would your DD actually thrive in a grammar environment? Not just be ok, but thrive. It’s so hard when you already have one at grammar to not want the same for your other child. This can put an awful lot more pressure on the second child though and make the fall if they don’t pass much larger.

Sorry, I waffle. I don’t think it’s as clear as just using “expected” as a guide. Is she really working at the top end of her cohort, can she cope with the fast pace of learning at a grammar, and how would she feel if she was always towards the bottom of the class in an academic school?

@TheRubyRedshoes I agree with you completely that it's not black and white, there's lots of things that can change in a child's life when they're receiving the protected years of FSM.
I'm not saying it's perfect and I'm not saying you're wrong. It really does sound like in your area, with the grammar you have, you should try and put her through. How much work is she doing? My DD is very dyslexic and has super slow processing, kindle has really helped as she can play the audio book and the words light up as the audio book reads them.

What’s your local comp like? Have you actually been to see it, spoken to the SEN staff and got a feel for how happy the kids are? Or are you just writing it off as grammar = good and comp = bad? I went to a grammar when frankly I wasn’t up to it. I won’t say it was scarring or anything because that would be over the top, but in retrospect I would’ve been much happier at a ‘normal’ school. Or at least one where the other kids were less competitive. I found the learning style rushed as the other girls picked things up very quickly, the teachers fixated on the Oxbridge contenders and the rest of us were left behind.

I can understand why you're a bit bitter about the FSM extra points but I don't really think you're quite grasping what that label entails. It's extremely difficult to be on FSM now. The income threshold is very very low. I am by no means saying FSM kids don't have caring parents, far from it, but it's unlikely the average FSM child has a parent who will be able to do all that you're doing with your daughter. They are often either working very unsocial hours or have all sorts of other effects of poverty to deal with.
Also, your comment about SEN is a bit weird too. No one is saying SEN means not academic. But the reality is, most grammars don't have a good SEN provision. A lot of the time SEN kids aren't able to put their knowledge and intelligence down on paper as easily too.
Your daughter sounds like she may well pass and that your local grammar is likely going to be a good fit for her if it's as you describe. What you describe is definitely not the norm for grammars though. I would definitely give her a chance, especially if her sister is there and you gave her that opportunity. If she turns out to be more fiercely academic in a couple of years, she may be bitter that you assumed she'd fail.

Now you've mentioned she's a younger sibling I would definitely say give her the chance.

I know where a younger sibling was labelled as less able so not put in for the same test. Still has a huge chip on their shoulder about it and a poor relationship with parents. Is now oversuccessful to make up for it. But desperately unhappy.

So give her the chance and your full support. The rest is up to her.

They need to be prolific readers. I think this is where my DS fell down. He was exceeding in maths and is bright but I don’t think he read enough.

The few that passed (and not many from our school did that year) were not as strong at maths but they were big readers.

But she isn’t academic SEN or otherwise, she is not grammar quality in her work.

I’m not sure what to say 🤷‍♀️ I didn’t make the rules but in my opinion they make sense to some degree.

Grammar schools take the most academically able and push them. That’s their focus. If a child is needing support/intervention to achieve ‘expected’ levels in mid primary school, they probably won’t cope in grammar school. Many SEN children fall in to this category, and lowering the pass mark so they could get in would not help them in the long run.

I did specifically say some SEN kids are academic and will pass the 11+. But the majority aren’t. I actually teach 3 SEN children with ADHD/autism diagnosis and they have/will probably pass the 11+ - with no allowances made. I teach a fair few more who wouldn’t have passed no matter how much tutoring was given, and lowering the pass mark for them would have don’t them no favours whatsoever because they just wouldn’t cope in a grammar school. They struggle to keep up in my mixed ability, non- selective class.

No disrespect intended but grammar schools aren’t intended for most SEN kids. They are set up for the ones who are achieving highly in academics at age 10/11. (Of course, some SEN kids do achieve highly academically in which case they’ll likely pass the 11+.) However most SEN kids are on the SEN register because they struggle academically. Grammar school is not the place for them. There will be little to no support even if they do somehow pass the exam. Comprehensive schools will be much better set up to support children with an SEN in my experience.

FSM kids are unlikely to have had tutoring like many middle class children, and may (MAY!!) not have had access to as much support at home, enriching experiences and so on. The idea of letting those children in with a slightly lower score than their ‘richer’ peers is to negate this disadvantage. Assuming they are bright enough they will do well at grammar school. It’s a blunt tool of course.

Why are you even considering a grammar school when she is SEN and sounds like she simply isn’t academic enough to go? Sorry if that sounds harsh but grammars aren’t places for average-but-tutored-to-high-heaven kids. And their SEN provision is shocking because they’re simply not used to SEN, for obvious reasons. I think you’re letting your own ego trump what’s best for her tbh.

I think someone who is not a reader would not pass. Sorry. If it was just about being of average ability then parents would not be tutoring their kids.

Which area?

If it's somewhere with super competitive grammar like S Warks or Birmingham where it's a tiny % who get in then I'd say no, but Kent might be easier?