Compulsory maths for all students in England till they're 18

So true.

GMTV once spent a whole programme on '50% of Hospitals are below average' and how terrible this was.

@knitnerd90
Make them do at least AB Calc or college level Calc classes. Some universities will make them do this.

It's considered evidence of the ability to think if any of them apply to grad school even in areas considered 'humanities', and you never know how their plans will change as they make their way toward graduation.

I think it says a lot about both how maths are taught and the English attitude towards maths that so many people are rubbishing it in this thread.

Ideally we wouldn't have this hard split between humanities/arts and sciences that the English system has. Students would study a broad variety of subjects, they'd study some to more depth than others, and universities would consider the full picture. I'd equally say that scientists and engineers shouldn't be dropping all other subjects at 16.

Not everyone is going to be an engineer and need the equivalent of A-Level further maths, but there's an increasing demand for numeracy and data analysis in all kinds of fields. I've advised my children that even if they major in humanities or social sciences (US system) they should take statistics.

Good idea in theory, however, in reality it'll be about decade before anyone begins to look about houses/mortgages. A lot if the things being talked about are things people don't look into until the time in their lives they need to. It would be an unbelievably boring topic to study.

Being taught about credit scores and financial management would be more beneficial. Also, not all knowledge needs to be tested, this would make it more enticing for many.

Good for them. They'll enjoy studying it to a high level in that case. Noone is calling your kids names 🙄

I'm not remotely mathsy myself but both my kids are and it's really irritating to see mathsy people described as 'drones', uncreative, boring etc. It's also galling to see these posts coming from people who simultaneously talk about the importance of critical thinking - doesn't that involve informing yourself about something before forming an opinion?

Higher maths is mind-blowing stuff (not that I understand any of it) and for the people who are good at it it's deeply creative. Applied maths leads to extraordinary real-world achievement and pure maths involves the most abstruse, abstract, mind-bending concepts that anyone could possibly come up with.

I fully understand that lots of people had bad experiences with maths at school but please don't call my kids and their friends 'drones' and don't think they lack creativity. It's just a type of creativity that isn't easily accessible to most of us because we didn't study maths past 16

FWIW, I agree- we narrow way too much at 16.

However, post-16 education runs on the idea that students study a small amount of subjects, and spend time engaged in self study of those subjects- hence free periods etc.

Personally, I think we should be seriously looking at proper full time education to 16- i.e. students engaged in lessons nearly all of the time, with perhaps a few study periods in the week, taking a broader range of subjects, and studying them in a bit less depth in many cases.

But this wouldn't be viable with the current level of funding- even though 16-18yos are in compulsory education, they get less funding than other age groups. The current funding doesn't pay for full time teaching- it's one of the reason a lot of state schools can't offer the IB- it needs more contact hours than is viable, I believe.

I agree it's not always about people having the skillsets, and I think working conditions in a lot of jobs is a factor.

But to say we have a massive oversupply of people with the relevant skills is also false, IMO.

Re vets....one of the reasons fir shortage is because of high levels of stress in the job, high drop out and difficulty in accessing degrees. Vets , sadly, have high suicide rates.

It isn't always about not having people with the skillsets.

Why maths? We need more focus on arts and humanities, subjects that teach critical thinking and that promote creativity. Or does Sunak just want a workforce of drones in a digital economy?

Sorry haven't read the whole thread but wouldn't it be better for the uk to move towards a new post 16 qualification?

I always think the IB looks better for the more academic at that age (not that either of my dc have done it) as surely it keeps more options open longer. I do feel in the uk we are very quick to narrow kids choices down quickly which is fine for kids who know their career path but for others they can end up with three random a levels.

Having said that I also have a dyslexic dc who really struggled with exams. Is a consistent hard worker and will have no problems in the real world but flounders on memory testing like exams.

FWIW, I couldn't name a school in my local area with a maths department that's fully staffed by specialists, so it's all a bit moot.

The UK shortage professions list currently includes things like:
-Nuclear scientists.
-Biochemical/biomedical scientists
-A range of jobs within geophysical science.
-Pretty much any type of engineer going.
-A large range of jobs in computing and IT.
-Vets.
-Architects.
-Lab techs.

These are all jobs where a high level of maths skill is really useful, or indeed, necessary. BTW, there are entry routes into some of these careers for those less accademic- for example the BTEC applied science route can lead to people going into biomedical science, or becoming a lab technician (among other things, obviously). But for some of these jobs you genuinely do need a high level of mathematical competency.

For balance, there is also a shortage of certain types of dance choreographer, orchestral musicians, graphic designers, too.

I don't think it's true that there is a surplus of "overqualified" people. I think there are lot of people with qualifications which don't lead to specific employment. That doesn't mean their higher education didn't have value, btw.

In terms of everyone capable doing maths already, that definitely isn't the case- now most students just do 3 A-levels and no AS, a lot of students who could do maths don't. I definitely teach some students who could do A-level maths but have opted to study 3 sciences instead.

I think this just shows how out of touch our PM is with what is happening in schools.
I mean it is a great theory, and I’m fully behind enhancing the maths skills of our population. BUT, there is a crisis in schools. There are not enough teachers as it is, and I agree with every poster who said that primary students are being taught too much without enough focus on the basics. When I first started working in secondary I was shocked by the sheer number of “average” ability students who couldn’t tell the time, or perform column subtraction, or column multiplication and didn’t know their times tables or place value. Yet they were being taught averages and solving two step linear equations.
that should be the focus - arithmetic. With that basic foundation, calculating the equation of a linear graph is pointless.

however, and this thread is absolute proof of what I am about to say, the biggest thing to improve mathematical outcomes is the wider societies opinion on maths. So many people hear saying what’s the point, you don’t need it, I never needed it and I’m fine, maths is hard, etc etc. are Singapore citizens just naturally more gifted at maths? Or are they better because it’s encouraged in the home and wider society? And therefore they go into school and into lessons with the belief that they can do it, as opposed to the belief that it’s too hard and pointless.

Rishi also needs to focus more on retaining the teachers we all ready have. I’m starting my pgce in maths this September, because the bursary the offer is very attractive. However, I don’t have much intention of being a mainstream full time teacher because, as passionate about teaching maths as I am, I just can’t get behind how schools focus more on what colour pen students are writing and marking in.

The whole idea is just bonkers and completely unfeasible since there is a dire shortage of Maths teachers as it is and a worrying number of woefully under qualified Maths teachers.

@Cherrypi
A module on investment also and index funds, how a company works,how to asses what you are buying/investing in etc.

Books like JL Collins simple path to wealth,talk knowledgeably about stocks and shares ISA and sipps.

Since living here I've noticed that people seem very happy/comfortable with being 'rubbish at maths' and it's weirdly almost a point of pride? There's a really weird narrative about maths being hard so it's ok not to have reasonably basic skills, rather than treating it as a basic building block for later life just like language.

You could make it really interesting and broad. A module on financial maths, mortgages, credit cards etc. Use Martin Lewis's material. A module on maths in art, Fibonacci, Escher. An old GCSE coursework type module. A module on puzzles. A module on origami or programming language.

In reality I imagine it'll be a computer course that kids will be sat in front of. Do other countries despise maths as much as the UK? I think that attitude is the one that needs tackling. No one boasts about not being able to read.

I fought my school tooth and claw to stop studying maths at 16. Everyone in my school had to do higher maths. I would not have been able to continue two languages, history and biology if I'd been forced to do maths. In the end I won my argument and an extra history class was set up for the refuseniks. I got AAAAB. If I'd done maths, I would not have got those results. And those results opened up better university options to me.

That said , the Scottish system did make it more likely that young people continued with a greater diversity of subjects beyond 16.

English Post 16 is going through the floor, unlike maths. Lots of this is to do with policy messaging. And also the end of ASs has lost a lot of bright, ambitious boys from English and history.

Which PM was that?

I did that! I did better in maths, much to my teacher's bewilderment.

The disinterested kids will just annoy those who are taking it seriously

What kind of nincompoop thinks that the best way to improve the numeracy levels in 16 year-olds is to tack on an extra 2 years of compulsory maths 'in some format', rather than tackling the reasons why those kids have failed to achieve competency in the 12 years they've been learning it so far?! Plus the majority of people will never even need half the maths they did at GCSE.

Lucky them - calculus wasted 2 weeks of teaching time at the end of my O level year that would have been far better spent doing practice papers.