rubbish local secondary school choices - London - did you end up moving?

Yes, perhaps it’s not true for me to say most London schools you have to sit a test, but it’s common where I live. Kingsdale used to be a rough school that no-one wanted. We looked at it when it was on the turn and it did seem nice- but that was before the lottery system was introduced. DD (now a young adult) was offered a half music scholarship - and she’s really not very musical. My next-door neighbour’s child goes to Kingsdale and they’re happy with it.

I have two DCs who are currently at separate secondary schools in London and neither sat a banding test.

However as you say other schools do use banding to ensure a fair intake but the issue with Kingsdale is it’s not just the banding test lottery. It’s the scholarships and half scholarships, which require a separate application form, and sitting music and sports tests - this accounts for 15% of intake. There are separate waiting lists for banding and scholarship pupils. It’s a complicated process and a child would need a parent who is quite savvy to make the best out of the system.
I know of parents whose children weren’t particularly interested in sports going for a sports scholarship anyway as a way to try and increase their chances of a place.

OP. If you want to leave London do. But you don’t need to go now. In year 4 visit the local schools. Then decide if you need to move. Everyone I know who started at FHb this year really liked it. I was underwhelmed by Kingsdale. I think you have to the the right kind of child to get the best out of it. If I had my time again I would have moved to be in catchment for Langley Boys.

Most London schools you have to sit some sort of test before being offered a place. The comprehensives near me do “fair banding”, so they take equal numbers of, say, five ability bands. All potential pupils have to take the test. It’s so they are true comprehensives, not just full of the very bright, for example - a child who lives farther away can get a place over one who lives closer.

This is so true. London state schools are generally v good. Money makes difference

Yes I think you are right. By having any sort of admissions test, you are immediately filtering out certain pupils - those with more disorganised home lives / or with parents who don’t speak English so don’t understand what they need to do / or parents work and can’t take time off to get them to the test etc.

Plus Kingsdale’s admissions system is much more complicated than most schools, making it even worse.

But what is annoying is that Kingsdale state the banding tests are there to ensure a fair range of abilities across the school. It’s rubbish! It’s a selective school that pretends it’s a comprehensive.

I'm in SW London but had similar issues - fantastic options for girls, much less good options for boys. Our local mixed comp had a bad Ofsted when DS1 was in early primary, the boys' option is thoroughly uninspiring and the results are well below the borough average, so we thought we'd probably have to move or sell an organ.

DS1 is in year 6 now and the local comp has had a massive turnaround - the requires improvement triggered so much change. New Head, it's part of a small but strong MAT, about five new heads of department and it's first post-Covid results smashed it in terms of performance relative to other schools in the borough. We loved it when we visited it too - got a really positive vibe and we're happy to be sending our son there rather than feeling a sense of dread about it. So things can change - and do go and see the schools if you can.

Have you actually been to the school or talked to parents with kids there, or are you just determined to rubbish it and do it down on a large forum without any real knowledge or experience of it?

@dreamingbohemian it sounds nice! I look forward to visiting when DC is a bit older.

I think the cracking down on poor behaviour is very good, as long as there's not an authoritarian approach generally, but given what you've said it sounds like they've got the balance of compassion and boundaries right.

My son's only a year in so I can't say much about outcomes and exams later on, but there is definitely a huge push to improve results and so there is loads of support, homework clubs, reading clubs, etc. There is a big focus on self-esteem and wellbeing too. They are VERY strict about behaviour, which will put a lot of people off, but I have to say my son is doing incredibly well because of it, in his last school there was so much disruption in the classroom.

It's very proudly a London school, very proud of its diversity, it really pushes tolerance and respect, and learning about current events and issues. They have lots of activities with local charities. They learn Black British History all year, not just doing a few things during Black History Month. They have inspiring quotes from Greta Thunberg and Barack Obama on the wall, that kind of place : ) It's not for everyone I guess but we like it.

Tallis is a solid choice but we were put off by how enormous it is (2200 students!) JR is rather explicitly social justice oriented which we also liked a lot

That's interesting, thanks @dreamingbohemian

Can I ask how the social justice emphasis manifests itself in school life? And what are destinations / progress like at JR?

Yes my son is here and it's improved a lot, I imagine in 5 years it will be back to Good.

Tallis is a solid choice but we were put off by how enormous it is (2200 students!)
JR is rather explicitly social justice oriented which we also liked a lot

John Roan became an academy rather than closing. I've heard good things about it lately.

I'm near-ish you and my only addition to others' comments is to suggest you speak to parents of current students - you must have some on your street / friends of friends?

My nearest secondary has been mentioned twice on this thread - Haberdashers Hatcham. I have to say, from the outside - and I see a lot of the school and its students - I absolutely do not get the appeal. I think it had its heyday some time ago and its OFSTED rating back in the mists of time. But I also know a good number of friends with kids there, including the sort of people who could put their money where their mouth is, and I know some of the high-achieving kids through an after-school activity - and tbh if DD was in Y6 today I think I'd send her. There's plenty wrong with it but lots of good. Try to get a clearer, more current picture of FHB.

I'm in SE3 and reading with interest. DC still young but wondering what we'll do when the time comes. Like OP we would not be keen on single sex and we're not religious. Lots from Blackheath seem to do Kent grammars but we don't want the pressure. The options round here are John Roan (was closed down but now reopened), and Thomas Tallis.

As someone has said I think there will be a lot of changes with secondary schools in SE areas in a few years. Some Southwark primary schools have become undersubscribed and will possibly be closing due to large amounts of families moving out the area (especially around Elephant and Castle way) this in turn will affect the secondaries in a few years.
@080878tukh as your boy is only Year 2 by the time he is secondary age it could all be completely different in the area.

I’ve got big gaps and live in SE London and I’ve really notice the difference over time. When my oldest was starting school many went private or just moved. For my second what you could call MC parents stopped doing this so much.

Now where I am it’s a either a bun fight - eg the new Charter nodal point was hotly contested at public consultation and people spend a lot via house prices to get in. The primaries in SE23 are well thought of and some people move to be close to them.

I’m glad to read good stuff re Sydenham Girls, I’m not sure of the catchment area but dc on my street go

Per pupil funding in London has been hugely higher than elsewhere for many years, which along with high -profile campaigns to improve London’s state schools and the fact they are on the Government’s front doorstep has led to higher standards. The fact the employment opportunities have also been so much more visible and prevalent in the capital (compared with eg coastal towns or ex industrial areas in the North) has also improved standards because there is something ‘worth working for’, in a way that there isn’t for the third generation of workless families in Skelmersdale…..

Yes that idea that London schools need to be avoided is nearly deduct now (I don’t know all though)

It’s probably due to rising costs of living here and more having to choose state. The overall effect s raised standards

Before they brought in the lottery system, and the scholarships, Kingsdale was the school everyone wanted to avoid even if they lived opposite. Have a read of the newspaper articles from the early 2000s. They pretty much had their own dedicated police officers! There is a reason why the HT made the choices he did on the admissions system.

Now people want it to be like other schools and admit on distance and be a 'local school'.

Also agree that people in London don't know how lucky they are on schools compared with most of the rest of the country. Even the ones people dislike are doing hugely better than a lot of sought after schools elsewhere.

Yes exactly this. I find it very annoying so I doubt we'll bother with them, despite being close by. Plus I really felt it was quite run down when we had the tour.

Yes, if you look at the stats for Kingsdale it has a higher percentage of 'prior high attainers' (those at the top level when they leave primary) than other schools - because of the hoops to jump through - which are frankly a right pain. They really do have a huge percentage of the local high-achieving children.

If you look at how these 'high attainers' do though, they make 'negative' progress (ie less than similar children at other schools), whereas they make positive progress at Forest Hill Boys and Sydenham Girls, I think. High prior attainers and both Forest Hill and Sydenham get better grades at GCSE according to the Attainment 8 measure.

Make of that what you will. I have friends who are very happy with Kingsdale and DD2 did originally really want to go there - but only got a half scholarship and no place. She wouldn't switch when a place came up though, because she has good friends where she is.

And remembering that yes, people in many areas of the country would love to have any of our local schools on their doorstep is really important. London parents are luckier than they know!

Thus back door selection- which by even slightly skewing the entry profile, improves results and thus reputation.

(See also eg religious schools where evidence of church attendance or early baptism is required - it effectively selects non-chaotic, organised families who can organise a baptism and know they will be in one place every Sunday for 6 months…. and are interested enough to know it is required)

Isn’t it one of those things where by putting barriers / complications into admissions procedures, you effectively weed out those least able to negotiate those barriers and thus you select out the families with most difficulties and select for those who are literate, determined and interested? Also mystique - by making access difficult and complex, the thing you attain is perceived to have more value?