rubbish local secondary school choices - London - did you end up moving?

Sorry but this is exactly what people are talking about when they suggest being careful when you are talking about schools in Y 5/6. I have three children at secondary school in the area and they are all doing really well academically and I'm generally pleased with their all round development too, with the usual hiccups. 'Just how bad the schools are' = not bad, actually.

Im also in SE London. I think unless you live here it’s hard for people to understand just how bad the schools are. After talking to young people on our street (regular babysitters - I knew them quite well) and friends who teach in the local secondary schools - again very compelling first hand accounts - we thought no way. One DS passed the out of county Kent grammar well enough to score a place and commutes, the other is at a local private school on a scholarship and we pay the rest of fees with grandparent help.

Another local parent here although I have girls. I am on the borders of Sydenham's catchment and was outside it in the run up to first child moving to secondary so did contemplate moving but decided to stay and luckily we had music scholarship options. I know parents with kids at FHS and they seem a mixture of ok about it and happy. It's not perfect, what school is. I understand your reluctance OP as even though we know ofsted isn't everything the rating "requires improvement" inspires reluctance. I do think less parents are moving out for secondary and FHB is on the up so hopefully this will continue and you will be happy with it as an option in the next few years. Alternative is to put your son down for Ladywell Prendergast Primary. This is a feeder school to the secondary and while you might not want to move your son from his current primary, the Prendergast primary is outstanding and guarantees a place in the secondary.

PS I do understand how irritating it is when someone comes on eg a property thread to boggle at the price of a house in Beckenham and state that you could have a mansion in Morpeth for that much but that really isn’t what’s happening here.

@Herefishy OP specifically asked if other people in her position ended up moving. The honest answer is that yes, many do, and the pp’s
relative is an example. OP says she can’t move internationally but she doesn’t specify what a move would look like, and whether she can move within the UK or needs to stay in London. If you feel it’s an unhelpful response then tell the OP to ask better questions. Don’t snipe at someone who gives a perfectly valid answer.

@ThanksItHasPockets How does it help?

You really can't tell much from schools even with ofsted reports. I live near you OP but went to a top performing Kent grammar school which had a drugs problem. Can get the best grades but doesn't reflect the actual behaviour/culture within the school.

How unnecessarily bitchy. That was a direct and valid response to the question in OP’s title.

Great to know. I'm sure the OP wants to relocate to Leeds.

I assume the pp who’ve mentioned Prendergast mean the one FKA Hilly Fields, which is girls’. OP should look at Prendergast Vale and Prendergast Ladywell Fields. Both are ‘good’ and you’d have a decent chance from parts of SE23.

Whereas my dd was grade 4 on one instrument and 3 on another when she applied and got a half scholarship and no place - so who knows? She's now (year 9) a pretty serious musician - grade 8 on her first instrument, places in several national ensembles and choirs.

However, she is firmly convinced she isn't as 'good' as the Kingsdale kids - it really knocked her confidence. But her school brings different opportunities, which are good too so it has worked out OK, and I wasn't that keen on her going anyway - her older sister was so happy at Sydenham that it seemed easier to go for the school we knew.

Maybe she isn't as naturally musical as others- we certainly hadn't prepared her for the MAT and were a bit naive. She should have played two pieces on her first instrument instead of one on each when the second wasn't as good.

I said I do know some very good musicians at Kingsdale

It's more about potential - you sit a Music Aptitude Test, aural tests and performance of 2 pieces with optional sight reading, plus a chat about what kind of music you enjoy.

DD has never taken a single exam in her main study. At the time she sat the test she was probably around G6 level in that and G1 in the other two. That's probably higher than the vast majority, DD reckons most of her friends on full scholarships were more like G3.

You don't need to be a classical performer (DD is not and we found a lot of schools were only really interested in classical music and orchestral instruments), and you don't need a sheaf of certificates or a working knowledge of composers. You also can't prep for the MAT (afaik).

You probably do need to be pretty interested in music rather than just being there because you've had piano lessons and thought you'd give it a go. You definitely don't need to be set on a career in that area either.

It's also not the case that they just use it to select via the back door. DD has severe dyslexia and while she's bright, I very much doubt she's going to be one of the kids with top grades in everything, and given we stated the SEN on the application for access arrangements in the tests, there was always the risk of being weeded out (one school did tell us that while they were very interested in her musically they couldn't meet her needs on that front).

Same with the sports scholarships - they're not assessing for academics there either.

Once you have a place at the school you can also apply for maths and art scholarships.

What the scholarships do ensure is very strong music and sports departments (especially as you have to take the relevant GCSE) - if you took those away and just had a system based on local entry, you'd be unlikely to have such large cohorts for GCSE and therefore smaller departments and a far smaller offer in terms of extra curricular activities for all (you don't have to be a scholar to be in the teams/bands/orchestras/choirs etc).

Please don't write off FHS on what you've heard without taking a look at it.

DH and I are both Oxbridge graduates and as middle class as it comes, our DS is in Y9 at FHS and we are very happy with it.

Yes, it's a genuine community comprehensive so he is with some boys who are a long way behind him in attainment and motivation, but he has been stretched and his learning supported (he is on the high potential strand and so gets some extra stuff as well as in lessons). He is also happy, safe, enjoys school and has made friends with a lovely bunch of boys. The school is very nurturing and works hard on challenging toxic masculinity and ensuring the boys know there is more than one way to be a young man. No school is perfect for all children of course but I would really encourage you not to write off a school on hearsay.

Our DD is in year 6 and hoping to go to Sydenham, we would also be v happy with Prendergast Ladywell which we put as second. When DS was choosing secondary a lot of the middle class parents in his year were desperate to get Kingsdale or Sydenham and avoid Prendergast; now Kingsdale and Sydenham seem much less fashionable and it's all about Prendergast. Even though I don't think anything has changed much for better or worse in any of those schools - it's all about the chatter. So by the time you are choosing a secondary who knows - FHS may have become super desirable, or Harris may have become flavour of the month...

Yes, I agree. I suspect my child wouldn’t have got one today if we applied, but at the time, I could see why a school would want her.

Even that small amount of selection is enough to change the overall demographic of the intake - towards those with parents interested enough and wealthy enough for music lessons; those who are ‘solidly average’ rather than those who find learning very challenging. That in turn affects results, then parental perception and popularity, then that gradually raises the degree of selection over time.

The ‘open warfare’ selection of 11+ is bad enough. The ‘sneaky backdoor’ selection of church attendance, musical aptitude tests, complex requirements is in some ways worse because everyone pretends it isn’t really there.

Meant to add, mine wasn’t particularly academic or bright. Solidly average at a state primary.

I tend to agree. It’s years since we looked at at Kingsdale so things may have changed. It was just after it had been turned round from being a school no one wanted and was at the very start of it being talked about as being good. For my DD to be offered a half music scholarship there, I was surprised. She was grade 1 or 2 on the piano. No musical prodigy.

Exactly. It is a selective school and also gives places on a lottery basis when no other school in south London runs a lottery. It is in the middle of a non-grammar and therefore supposedly "comprehensive" area. I have no idea how K gets away with it ... and everyone hates the idea of their admissions process until their child gets "lucky" and gets a place.

I personally know two boys who were high achieving at primary who failed to get a Uni place this year. It is definitely not the be all and end all.

I also know many people who sent their first child there but not their seconds and subsequents.

How many children in receipt of pupil premium or with other markers of disadvantage get theses ‘scholarship’ slots, though? And how does the school compensate for the fact that, in general, it is those from more advantaged socio-economic backgrounds who have the instrumental tuition necessary to compete for such scholarships? Equally, how many music scholars are higher than average ability academically, making this a proxy for academic selection?

It’s selecting ‘easy’ kids and selecting against those who are most disadvantaged, this improving its results and public perception.

How good at music do you need to be?

My DD is on a full music scholarship place so:

1. we knew she basically had a guaranteed place as her ranking was high enough to get in on offers day.
2. free one to one tuition in her main musical study
3. free music theory tuition
4. access to music focused masterclasses (this week there was a day focused on gospel music with other schools from Southwark)
5. access to specific groups and choirs (some open to all, some invitation only).
6. programme of concerts

Plus it means the school has a huge music department and offer a lot of support to children who are considering a career in the music industry. There are three GCSE music classes in my DD's year (you lose the scholarship if you don't take GCSE music).

I spoke to the Musician's Union recently at a conference and they couldn't believe that a state school could have a music department on this level, so it appears to be quite rare.

Having sat for most of the music scholarships in London, Kingsdale did have the most inclusive and extensive application process (Camden Girls had several hundred sit the MAT but only invited the top 50 scoring students back to the audition and offer a tiny number of scholarships overall - Kingsdale you sit all parts and are marked on everything).

Half scholarship I think gets you free group tuition rather than one to one, but the rest is the same.

Fyi Hayes just got an outstanding this week. Mixed school. Currently need to live within about 0.9 miles. As the head said it's outstanding, not perfect, which I think is the attitude to take to all 'outstanding' schools.