Title edited by MNHQ at request of OP - Updated: School being annoying about languages - what to do?

Unsurprising in our rigid centrally-led education system. Completely nuts.

I taught MFL and now tutor it. Posters saying that fluent speaking ability in MFL doesn’t equal a high pass at GCSE are right – in the sense that that alone wil not do it. I had a student who was described to me as being German – but tho they spoke it reasonably well, they did no work and put no effort in, and barely earned their place in set two (of four). I had two other students who were said to be fluent in French but when we looked into it (we had a session with them, me and the HoD) they could understand it well enough but barely speak it. They were placed in lower sets relating to their general ability. Equally, I have worked with native speakers who think the exam (A level more than GCSE tbf) will be a walk in the park, but of course it isn’t. even GCSE requires knowledge of tenses, accuracy in spelling, ability to master cases (in German) and a knowledge of what kinds of things to say and write in the exam.

But BUT it doesn’t sound as tho that is the issue with OP’s DC. They are clearly capable and keen, and have ability beyond the set they have been placed in. It seems utterly counter-productive of the school to have them in a group where they are bored and demotivated.

Yes they will need to learn how to pass the GCSE and may need to do some work on their written accuracy in German but that is perfectly possible to do.

OP I would push and push for a move – keep contacting the HoD and ask what will be done and when. Top set surely at the very least. I have to say I would not be a massive fan of a yr 9 being placed in my GCSE class as teaching in a GCSE cass needs to be targeted very much at the needs of the students taking GCSE (which I imagine would be different from the OP’s DC’s needs) while in a top set year 9 there would be more flexibility, as it is not an exam class, if that makes sense.

Sorry for long message and have not read all thread!

Reminds me of poor Sara Crewe when she was forced to learn that “la mere” means “mother” despite the fact that her own mother was French.

“She began to explain quite simply in pretty and fluent French. Madame had not understood. She had not learned French exactly—not out of books—but her papa and other people had always spoken it to her, and she had read it and written it as she had read and written English. Her papa loved it, and she loved it because he did. Her dear mamma, who had died when she was born, had been French. She would be glad to learn anything monsieur would teach her, but what she had tried to explain to madame was that she already knew the words in this book— and she held out the little book of phrases.“

I think I’d enter him privately for GCSE German as he’s fluent.

Personally I've not come across sets specifically for languages. I've come across an A and B stream where the As and Bs do all their subjects together for timetabling, is this it?

Clearly the languages department are doing nothing, so escalate it to whomever you haven't already spoken to in the school: Head of Year/Deputy Head for Curriculum/ Governors ... whoever is next in the chain. It may be that the school just doesn't value MFL (I've certainly taught in a couple of those, very demoralising) and you don't get any joy, but it is something you should be pushing for until there's no further to go because the current situation is patently ridiculous.

DC won't be able to go straight to A Level as that examines more than language ability, there has to be an element of literature and an extended project (depends on the exam board but they all have either set books or films). But they should be able to go straight through GCSE with just a bit of advice about exam skills. Most bilingual children need a bit of training to get them into the habit of showing off their language skills rather than just answering the question set (they obviously need to answer the question, but at the same time demonstrate their knowledge of grammar and vocabulary), but they should be ready to sit a GCSE with just a few weeks' preparation. GCSE MFL are not difficult, by international standards, a 9 at GCSE is roughly equivalent to B1 across the four skills, which your DC should easily exceed.

I would be pushing for DC to join a Year 11 class (top set) if possible. If that doesn't work with timetabling, then they should be allowed to sit out German lessons and prepare for the GCSE in their own time. An A Level class would be appropriate to their language skills but perhaps not to their comprehension of literature/emotional maturity. If the school offer other languages, I would switch to them and keep German for home. Otherwise, switch schools, the language department at this one is clearly rubbish. As an absolute minimum short-term fix, your DC should be set alternative, more advanced, work during the German class that they're currently in.

My dd was put in bottom sets for everything the claim was her primary school hadn't sent her levels over so it would get sorted "eventually" 18 mortgage in I moved her to a different secondary they didn't want her to go so didn't prioritise sending information over the school simply assessed her and placed her appropriately when the levels were sent over they were lower than the sets she was in

Tldr

Change the school if it's not resolved by Christmas

Language sets are sometimes based on English and mathematics timetabling. So sets align based on those not the language.

That’s ridiculous.
Did they say when will they get the information to re-set the students?

The number of posters who don’t seem to think children deserve a challenging education is disturbing.

Are people not embarrassed to write tldr? You may as well say, "I have the attention span of a gnat, please spoon feed me information so I can then misread it anyway and call you unreasonable"

Anyway OP. I'd pull them out. It's a ridiculous waste of your child's time.

To a pp: Someone failing their o levels despite their mother speaking the language isn't relevant. Going to school for years is.

I think this is absolutely ridiculous.
Also, a child who has been in a state school in Germany and participated in the German lessons there (for native speakers) as well as doing other subjects in German, will be perfectly capable of writing good German. So the argument that they can speak fluently but perhaps can't write it properly absolutely does not fly with me. I live in Austria and know quite about a lot about the curriculum there and in Bavaria.
The grammar which you say a native speaker of German might not understand will have been taught in the school in Germany. It's not the same as in the UK where children are not taught about tenses such as present continuous, present perfect etc and therefore attending the English lessons at the school in Germany would have been of benefit to your child.
This is a complete and utter waste of your child's time. The school aren't going to be moved on this for some reason. So I would suggest you ask to pull them out of German as it is a complete waste of time. He/she could do German GCSE with a private tutor.

This would drive me crazy too.

My son also went to primary school in Germany, and his grasp of German grammar is better than some of the German teachers at his school. He also speaks German without an English accent, although he does sometimes come out with strange things in English.

Have you asked if they will move him up to the top set if he does well in tests? But even being in the top set will not be advanced enough for him if they're only A1 level. Could he drop German altogether and spend the time doing extra French?

DS's school here (the US) offers German, but DS has decided to take Japanese instead. To maintain his German, he is working towards his Deutsches Sprachdiplom so that he can study at a German university.

As a language teacher (Spanish) I find this appalling. No bilingual child should be placed in the bottom set.

If your DC was at my school they would have been properly assessed and placed in the appropriate set from the start. If they started in the wrong set, this would have been picked up and they would have moved, after assessment, into the correct set ASAP.

I’ve found most bilingual children whose parents want them to go to the language lessons end up in set 1 or 2. Definitely not set 5. They have good speaking, listening, reading and writing abilities but they lack in the grammar/language structure so set 2 is usually a very good compromise. Where necessary extension work and differentiated work is provided. They are NOT extra teaching assistants as a previous poster commented. (Not saying some schools don’t do that). These children need around a year in the class, whether it is Y7/8/9, (Y10 and 11 are dealt with slightly differently in twilight classes and go straight to the GCSE), to get the grammar knowledge before they can go into the accelerated GCSE class where they take the GCSE early and then placed into A-Level the year after. With some very cleaver planning, the accelerated GCSE can be run in a timetabled slot, otherwise, it’s run as a twilight session and the children who are years 8/9 are provided work from the twilight sessions to complete in the normal slot for the ‘everyone else’ Spanish lesson. (Y10/11 will not have chosen it as an option, as they would be purely twilight class).

You really need to be asking the school what their problem is. As language teachers we have a duty to teach children at the appropriate level and inspire them. Where necessary, to teach beyond the prescribed syllabus and stretch them or provide alternative pathways which give the children challenge/something to work towards. I’d be interested to know whether they done this with any other bilingual children? If so you have a problem which is never going to be resolved.

This is crazy OP!

If your sons school have heard him speak fluently and not moved him themselves then I’d say this is probably not worth fighting.

i would follow the previous posters suggestion to book him in for his German gcse at the end of year 9 privately. Buy him a gcse German revision guide and pay for a few tutoring sessions.

At the end of year 9 he should be able to drop it at school and you can progress to a level privately if you want to.

Let him take a German reading book into gcse German leçons if he’s very bored

I don't understand the comments. This would seriously annoy me too. Your child will be completely demotivated. I find languages teaching in this country pretty frustrating generally - my DC school offers only one - so sympathise but have no solutions.

That is annoying. We have a lot of bilingual families at our school and those kids are in the top sets. My dd was in top set Spanish because we lived overseas in a Spanish speaking country.

Unfortunately our school dropped German gcse which is what my younger dd wanted to study, so we are paying for her to study online at the Goethe Institute. She also practises with dh who is a native German speaker.

Tbh I'd consider whether you can move him to a school with a better "culture".

As a teacher I've worked in a school where they wouldn't have moved your son (the school and it's management were appalling) and ones where you wouldn't have needed a meeting - he would have been whisked into an a level group following a brief conversation with you both (they were good schools).

If you want to work with/challenge them I'd write to them, copying in the governor's and LA if it isn't an academy asking how they plan to meet your child's educational needs as clearly they aren't at present

God the irony. 🤣🤣🤣

This is awful! Can you take it higher? The right to education is a human right. www.unesco.org/en/education/right-education/state-obligations-responsibilities

Having said that, is he in bottom sets across the board and do you think he should be? Because it can be hard to place a child whose ability isn’t consistent but I wonder if you would get better results if you fight his setting for all subjects. Bottom sets usually are for children with SEN or behavioural issues.

The other option you have, if you think his other sets are fine, is to speak to the exams officer and see if they can put him in for GCSE German as a private candidate (which means the headteacher etc wouldn’t be the gatekeepers but not all schools offer this) and progress him to A-level next year then his German set will be irrelevant. If they don’t accept entries from private candidates you can ring around other schools and find one that does and put him in that way. It costs a couple of hundred quid for the exams and the invigilators.

Hardly worth wasting a post on.

I'd ask if they could either
A) spend the time working on GCSE german independently to allow them to sit the exam this summer
B) use the time to instead work on any "gaps" they have in any other key subject due to being in a different education system.

God that’s arrogant. If your time is too precious and you can’t be bothered to read the thread, then don’t bother commenting on it!

It must be worrying but they will be fine. They will pass all their exams with flying colours regardless of what set they are in. Just don’t give yourself and your children the stress of worrying about it.