Title edited by MNHQ at request of OP - Updated: School being annoying about languages - what to do?

Can you ask if your Dc can take the German GCSE at the end of year 9? Find out what board they do, and look at past papers - you can find mark schemes and grade boundaries online so you could work out what kind of grade your DC would get. That would free up an option for Year 10 onwards if they already have their German GCSE.
Do be aware though that your DC's written German might not be as good as their spoken German and their comprehension. I have occasionally been told I am getting a 'bilingual' student who can certainly jabber away and understand everything I say but they have no idea how to use grammar or spell except phonetically. Not saying that's the case for your DC but do be prepared to listen to what they have to say. I had a parent getting cross because I was constantly assessing their 'bilingual' child as a 6 because their writing brought down their overall grade - they couldn't even spell the equivalent of 'I have' correctly because they wrote everything as they heard it. I worked with that child for 3 years and in the end she got her Grade 9 at the end of year 9 - she never would have been able to do that thee years previously.

Thats very pre September 2019
Differentiation is out
QFT, adaptation and adjustment now

No-one judges lessons and gives a grade surely? Against what criteria to be RI? Ofsted dont judge lessons so how can their grading system of RI be used?

Look, it's not worth getting in a flap about.

Was fluent German and literally told I was on track for a D. Needless to say I got an A

They just probably don't know how to deal with your DC

I’d remove your DC from the German class entirely. Find a tutor, study for GCSE privately and then concentrate on what they need in order to attend a German Uni. Unless they want to specialise in languages and need the A level. So many more online classes and resources available now.
I’ve been learning German for years and the standard of a GCSE is pitifully low anyway.

Can recommend Grammatik Aktiv books for grammar revision.

As a primary teacher I do find it surprising. Why on earth am I differentiating every maths lesson 6 or more ways so every single child is making progress from their very specific starting point, yet a secondary school can get away with this shite? If I was observed not challenging a fluent speaker in a primary French lesson I'd be absolutely ripped to shreds! Lesson would immediately be RI at best.

in German and Russian*

I discovered that not all private schools are great at languages, even those that claim to have many language options. I was born in Russia and grew up in Germany, so speak both fluently, but at an open day at Highgate two years ago I tried to speak to the German and Russian teachers in German and they weren't actually that fluent in either language 😬Maybe it was bad luck and the teachers changed.

Anyway, OP - it would drive me absolutely insane!! Can you get outside prep for GSCE German for her?

For all the people saying 'change schools', do you live in areas where there are loads of schools with vacancies at various year groups? Where I am all the schools are over PAN, its not that easy to just up and change

For OPs child, I would be encouraging them to engage with the German teacher in the class completely in German, not speak a word of English during the lessons. It will show just how ridiculous it is.

They are being ridiculous. It may be that they can't be in top set German whilst being in bottom set French due to the timetabling. If so suggest they drop one so they are at least set appropriately for one. Look into doing the German GCSE in year 10 so that they don't need to select it as an option.

I would guess that the way the timetabling is done, students are in a "language" set and so it has to be the same for both languages. They probably all do languages in the same timetable slots, but each set will be doing German in a different slot to the others. They probably set mainly on the basis of French, if that's the school's "first" foreign language or if the school starts at year 9 (since most will have done French before). So if your son hasn't done French previously, that's the problem.

If he's not planning on French GCSE, and he's reasonably bright, then it might work better for him to be in the top language set, and accept that he will be floundering/working on his own from an easier book in French.
If the school gets everyone to do French GCSE (mine did, German was an option), then either he'll have to do it, or they'll have to let him off - and that may not be possible because there is no other subject running in that timetable slot, so he'd end up with one fewer GCSE. That might be a reason to stay in a group which works better for his French. Maybe some tuition to help him catch his French up?

Timetabling can be a pain. I taught in a school where the timetabling meant that if you were in the top half for maths, you had to be in the top half for English. That didn't work well for pupils who came in from abroad (and were often very good at maths) - the compromise ended up that they went into the top set for maths, and there was extra E2L support in the lowest English set in the top half.

They're probably worried your DC is going to embarrass the teacher by speaking German better than them.

Absolutely this.

Privately prepare your dc for German GCSE.

Learn a different language - go into Spanish or Latin or Mandarin, or whatever they offer.

Enter German GCSE independently (either get a tutor, or do the Goethe prep course, or just do some GCSE past papers yourself). Read German books, watch German TV online, keep in practice that way. There is probably a Samstagschule for German families somewhere nearby, which you might both enjoy (the classes are often aimed at younger kids but there are also often social events and exam prep classes).

Are the top set and bottom set lessons on at the same time?

It could be a logistical issue they are trying to defend with curriculum reasons.

I’m an MFL teacher and we deal with native speakers all the time. We would immediately move them to the top set after realising their level. The school is being ridiculous

There is no excuse that is valid enough for them to refuse to move your son up to an appropriate set. They are not meeting your son's needs in this subject. If I'm being completely honest, it sounds of he is being used to support others in that lower set and the school is banking on him passing without needing appropriate lessons before GCSE.

This seems ridiculous. I would make a complaint to Head, cc in HofD who you spoke to, and if nothing comes of it, Governors.

As a German teacher, this situation is nuts. He can work independently on the vocab etc for the GCSE at the back of the class, or teacher should be able to provide him with some alternative work eg working on writing skills, doing past papers etc.

Native/near native speakers need a different approach to grammar and skills learning than non-natives.

But def take to Head and also to governors - ask why your child's progress in a subject they are already expert in is being artificially withheld.

Do this now and insist on a solution being found and activated by half term.

Alternatively find a GCSE tutor - happy to help myself so send me a PM if you need some tips.

Had same thing with French, my child started in year seven already reasonably able to speak it having studied it for 4-5 years in various places. If he had stuck at it at the same pace he would have been able to take a GCSE in year nine.

The School put my child in a beginners set along with those who had never spoken French before.

I informed them multiple times and the Head of Modern Languages told me that's the way it was and that "even the native French students were in mixed sets" ie all learning "j m'appelle Claude".

Utterly ridiculous.

I told them my child was utterly bored and was disengaging with the subject but they did very little to extend him despite my constant requests.

They were then disappointed when my child went off French due to being utterly bored in lessons and my child took a different language for GCSE and dropped the French entirely. "But he's getting top marks, we're very disappointed he's not continuing" was their lament.

My reply: "Yep, he was getting top marks three years ago too in your tests and you said he was at year nine or ten level back then, but you did nothing about it and carried on teaching him how to say "J'ai un chat" and now he's so utterly fed up and disengaged - as I warned he would be - that he's not taken your subject."

Modern foreign languages education in the Uk in state countries is, in my experience, piss poor.

Oh tell me about it. Language teaching in this country is horrendously appalling!

We came back from Poland in early July
2021. DS1 was 14 and DS2 was 11. We wanted to move earlier but it was a strategic move to align with Y10 and Y7.

Having lived in Poland for 12 years, (DS2 was actually born in Poland), both DC are fluent in polish. Like you, they went to the English classes in their polish school. For much the same reasons.

DS1 was lucky, he went straight into choosing options and he didn’t have to choose a language for GCSE because he will be doing polish GCSE. He’s now Y11 and in January will be going to a tutor to learn the structure of the exam and do a few practices before he sits the polish GCSE at his school. The path to getting there though was a nightmare. Trying to explain to the school that the only foreign language lessons your DC has had are English and Russian, but they’re fluent in polish, is a complete waste of time. They just can’t grasp the concept. They were insistent that he must have done French or German or Spanish and to take one for GCSE. He has never done any of these languages! How is he going to do them now, from scratch, in 2 years? It took a good month over the summer, a lot of persuasion, and finding evidence they schools results would not be negatively affected for it, (hence doing GCSE polish in Y11 and not earlier as not ‘mess up’ their ebacc results - sigh…) before they grasped the fact. Anyways, a few hundred conversations later and he’s doing Polish GCSE and filling the language block with something else non-languagey.

DS2 was not so lucky. Although, having fluency in English, polish and learned Russian for 2 years gave him a good grounding. He’s really took to German, not so much to French and Spanish. He dropped French this year (they’re allowed to drop 1 at the end of Y7). However, language teaching is so slow! DS2 is always complaining that he’s learned the class work and needs to move on, he’s gone into top set German and Spanish but it’s just not stretching him. At this point in his language learning (of Russian anyways as it’s the only one he’s actually learned as a proper foreign language rather than from birth) he was having conversations and understood basic grammar. They were holding the whole lesson in Russian.
He can’t get over (and neither can I) how slow it is, how much time it takes to get through the material and the fact they keep speaking in English in the lessons. They are learning things that, in Poland anyways, would have been taught in a quarter of the time and to a 8/9 year old. Its like this country doesn’t want to teach foreign language? They are so under resourced and so textbook driven. There is no spontaneity or flexibility in speaking in the lessons. They have no idea how to differentiate work for those with higher language abilities. And don’t get me started on the limited time they actually have language lessons, its laughable. However, there are some very dedicated language teachers out there who do their best with this appalling system and get the best out of their classes. Anyways, I’ve gone off on one.

I’ve spoken to teachers about stretching DS2. I came across some similar problems of progression and sticking with the same year group. I asked about conversational clubs after school but they are for GCSE and A-Level only. Honestly, it really is bonkers, it’s like they want to hold kids back from language learning.

I feel for you. I really do. The only thing I can suggest is keep having the conversations with the school. What other options are available at the same time? (Although, for Y9, there’s probably nothing). Can they take some German materials into class (made for native German speaking children, maybe the German equivalent of English if you get my meaning) and your DC can read these/do the exercises in lessons? Can you allow your DC to drop German at the end of Y9 and have after-school classes in Y11 to still do the GCSE? Might be a case of waiting it out until they get re-settled. Do they re-set them in January? Can you take it higher than the language department? Maybe to the head of year, head of key stage, head of school even? Why not even to the governors? Someone along the way will see it’s a bonkers situation and help you do something about it.

We'd usually have native speakers do something else and take a gcse in their community language early.

I wonder why they're not doing that? I hope it's not in the assumption that he'll become a free language assistant.

Yes, none of it makes sense.

What nonsense.
If they're speaking better German than the top set teacher, that applies to the bottom set as well.

Good luck sorting out a better way forward.

I just wanted to reiterate the advice regarding German GCSE that others have given. Both my children did this (from beginners) with top results; the kind of thing they practiced for writing and speaking exercises was ensuring they included at least X different verbs and Y different sentence structures etc. That's the kind of thing people mean regarding "exam technique" that your son would benefit from a few tutoring sessions in. But yes, he should be able to do the exam any time given a small amount of targetted tuition to the syllabus and exam style.

My youngest is doing German A level (at a fairly selective school so they are trying to stretch them to top grades). They started 6th form by giving them some Kafka to read ... So yes, A level German may be great for your son but probably not for another year or two, when he is ready to engage with German literature at the expected level.

I was pretty much fluent in Spanish as a teenager but got automatically put in the bottom set as I was ill on the level test to sort us out. I asked to move to the top set but they refused. I was so bored and it took almost until half term to get me changed.
Ironically I am now a translator.