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Original poster

Title edited by MNHQ at request of OP - Updated: School being annoying about languages - what to do?

92 replies

EverythingSortsEventually · 14/10/2022 12:36

Warning: Apologies, this turned into a bit of a rant and got a bit long.

I’m getting very annoyed at DC school about their approach to languages. DC just gone into Y9 and started their school this year.

We lived in Germany for 10 years. DC was aged 3-13. Let’s just say they have a pretty decent grasp of German, despite it technically being a 2nd language, having lived around the language for 10 years and gone to the German equivalent of English state school. I’d go as far as saying that I actually think my childs German is better than their English. Although it’s borderline.

So their England secondary school teaches French and German. They were put into the French and German lessons. Fine. I have no problem with this. DC actually went to the English lessons in their German school. Despite speaking English at home it helped their English especially in terms of grammar which native speakers usually miss out on. Plus, allowed DC to use English in a context which wasn’t just with the family. Let’s just say, by the age of 13, most of the kids in the school had a grasp of English which would mean they could hold basic everyday conversations abut simple things and survive in English if they had to as they have a good foundation. I would say to about A2/Low B1 on the language scale. The school also were good at teaching foreign languages and allowed DC to use/develop more complex English in the lessons. Pushing DC up to the top class even allowing DC to have some English classes with a higher year group when the lessons aligned. So I haven’t a problem with DC being in German lessons as they will get the grammar parts they don’t get as a ‘native’ speaker and it keeps the German ticking over.

However, school have put DC in the bottom set for both French and German. Right, ok. I can understand the reasoning in that they have no knowledge of language abilities and sets can change. But, DC is fluent in German. Alright, I can cope with bottom set French, that’s something that can sort itself out with setting later on, but German! Really?

I’ve spoken countless times to the school about this and so has DC. I explained how it worked for English in Germany and whether there was a possibility of doing the same here.

They have 2 German lessons a fortnight. I understand there are timetabling issues regarding going into a Y10/Y11 class or even a sixth form class (although I know fine well, from what DC has said, there is at least one Y10 class scheduled for the same time as their German class and one sixth form class at the same time as their other German class so I don’t understand why DC can’t just go to those classes instead).

I was then given some rubbish about following the ‘correct curriculum progression’. I honestly don’t care about whether they follow the ‘correct curriculum progression’ for German. They have used the language spontaneously and flexibly for 10 years of their life. They use German every day anyways in a non ‘correct curriculum progression’ way when speaking/texting/WhatsApping their German friends. DC still hears German at home because I do speak to my German friends in German and so does DH. Its not like they are going to forget it overnight or can’t use the correct German for the correct situation.
It won’t be that hard for them to go into the GCSE German class for a term before the GCSE exams and learn the format of the papers.

So I have asked whether DC can, at the very least, be moved to the Y9 top set. The answer was no, as they have no previous record of language skills they had to put DC on bottom set.

Fine. I organised a meeting with the German teacher and the head of German. We had a conversation about my DC in German! My DC spoke in fluent German to the German teacher and the head of German throughout explaining why they wanted to go into the higher sets! My DC had been doing some googling and actually took an ALevel German paper with them and showed the teachers they could understand it and answer the questions. How much more evidence do they need of language ability!? But no, they have to be set properly like the rest of the school. I mean come on! This is really doing my head in. The Y9 bottom set are doing no more than still trying to remember how to say who they are, where they live and the contents of their pencil cases - definitely not even on the language scales never mind A1. DC is making the most of this class and trying to help others and has said that some of their friends have liked them being in the class and DC can see how much they have helped them but it really isn’t helping DC and they are getting bored. The top set are a lot further along and are at least learning about grammar and trying to have basic daily conversations so probably around the A1/low A2 level. This is what DC wants to be doing. Having conversations at the very least and doesn’t mind if it’s a bit dodgy or they have to help others.

I’m debating asking the school whether it’s even worth DC doing German and whether there’s something else they can be doing. (Although I don’t really want to, I think keeping up with German, however rubbish it is/whatever solution we find is no bad thing).

I just don’t get it! Why can’t the school not just use common sense? How can I make them listen?

OP posts:
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dcut · 17/12/2022 21:29

That's a great outcome OP!

ilikehoney · 17/12/2022 19:58

Quveas · 14/10/2022 13:31

It's a long time ago - I am 65 now - but the only person in our German class who failed German O Level was the child who had lived in Germany for 10 years and was fluent! Being fluent in speaking a language is not the same thing as being literate in the language - just have a look around the UK for evidence of that! If your child shows performance at a higher level they will be re-assessed and moved up. I would suggest that you focus on making sure that happens rather than trying to change the here and now. It shouldn't take that long if they are as capable as you suggest.

The child answers A level questions.

FaazoHuyzeoSix · 17/12/2022 10:15

oops. apologies I did the stupid thing of replying to the op only without checking the date.
brilliant update OP!

FaazoHuyzeoSix · 17/12/2022 10:11

yanbu

the school can see that your son will get an A in german at GCSE even if they do nothing at all for him, and that will be good for their statistics. putting him in a top set or A level class can't improve on that optimum outcome for them so there is no benefit to the school from teaching him more. meanwhile if they keep him in the bottom set he is being forced to act as an unpaid teaching assistant to his classmates, which definitely does benefit the school and means that his cohort might possibly be dragged up by a grade from their normally dismal results.

point this out in a formal complaint to the school governors.

LimeCheesecake · 17/12/2022 10:02

That’s a great update!

Carolservicedeprived · 17/12/2022 09:27

Great to hear OP found a sensible solution

Carolservicedeprived · 17/12/2022 09:27

XelaM · 14/10/2022 20:52

I discovered that not all private schools are great at languages, even those that claim to have many language options. I was born in Russia and grew up in Germany, so speak both fluently, but at an open day at Highgate two years ago I tried to speak to the German and Russian teachers in German and they weren't actually that fluent in either language 😬Maybe it was bad luck and the teachers changed.

Anyway, OP - it would drive me absolutely insane!! Can you get outside prep for GSCE German for her?

Show quote history

This is true. A friend of mine got a job teaching French (his degree subject) in a private school. Then after a term they said he also needed to teach GCSE Spanish. He only had GCSE Spanish himself!

maddy68 · 17/12/2022 09:24

They are probably streamed across a lot of subjects in year 9. The higher set German would mean they would have to be higher sets for everything

You have done what you can
Timetables are the hardest thing in schools and people outside of that system don't understand

It's frustrating. But I would make sure they take German at GCSE this year 9 year won't matter

TiaraBoo · 17/12/2022 09:20

Great update! Really pleased for your DC.

PlaitBilledDuckyPuss · 16/12/2022 23:47

I wasn't on your thread originally and I have my threads flipped by default so it was extremely satisfying to read of your original ludicrous situation, with your successful resolution straight afterwards. It's good when common sense prevails.

Changechangychange · 16/12/2022 23:46

What a lovely update! It is so positive to hear how the new school have worked with you.

Original poster
EverythingSortsEventually · 16/12/2022 23:41

I promised an update so here it is.

DC has moved school. Started on Monday. Immediate improvement.

To cut a long story short. I started working through the action plan. I was getting nowhere, no answers and kept getting referred back to the German teacher, who is not going to do any assessments until the end of year 9.

I gave up. I rang other schools and spoke to them about DC. Most were full and not interested, a couple listened but said we would have to appeal. A couple had places.

We went and looked at 2 that had places and a couple of others. I insisted on talking to the German teachers.

We ended up choosing an undersubscribed school close to us which isn’t considered the best but I couldn’t care less any more. The teachers, head and receptionist were welcoming and warm. The school has a lovely caring atmosphere with happy children. They don’t seem to care about league tables or subject combinations but do get a number hitting the top grades and doing the ‘proper combination’ each year.
I don’t know why I every overlooked it in favour of going to the catchment school or believed everything I heard about it being really rubbish.

Plus, and this is what sold it, they have a native German person teaching German. They spoke to DC (in German) for 15 minutes and afterwards said DC was definitely fluent and bottom set year 9 was not the place for them. (Yes, I had explained the whole saga).
This teacher informed us DC could sit IGCSE German First Language. (Yes, this is an actual thing that exists!)

I asked about setting for other subjects. We had a choice between same sets as a buddy until the end of term assessments or on DC first day they will have the English, maths, science and French assessments the rest of year 9 sat before half term and will be settled according to those.

We discussed a move and DC wanted to so we’ve moved.

DC had their first day on Monday. DC decided not to sit the assessments because they happened in class this week anyways. Went to the office, met the buddy, went to form and had a good day.

Yesterday we had a meeting after school with the german teacher. Apparently they’ve provided teacher and/or specialist tutor support for IGCSE First Language Arabic, Chinese and Portuguese in the past, as well as other community language GCSEs so German is no different. DC will start their German First Language IGCSE lessons after Christmas. They will go to top set year 9 German where they can do independent IGCSE work which has been set or join in with the class, and one after school lesson a week with the native German speaking teacher until ready to sit the exam. DC also allowed to join in with ALevel German speaking practice in an after school activity if they want to as well.

DC happy, it’s only been a week and a bit funny as some subjects have had assessments, but they said to me earlier they prefer this school, not just because of the German, but the whole of the school.

I’m happy. Looks like we got there in the end.

OP posts:
SisterGabriel · 18/10/2022 21:51

I’m a modern languages teacher and cannot explain the school’s behaviour. They sound ridiculous. Go somewhere else where the staff can apply common sense.

endofthelinefinally · 18/10/2022 11:01

Sometimes you have to just work around the school. IME it is difficult for schools to change the curriculum in any way. My child was excellent at languages and very motivated. Some teachers found this threatening, others were more supportive. The supportive ones provided extra books, projects, gave us information about radio, films etc. Things to do outside lesson time. In lessons they were ok with work being done quickly, then the remainder of the lesson spent reading an appropriate novel in the relevant language or writing an extra essay for example.
Sixth form college was fantastic in terms of support and freedom to learn at the appropriate level.

Finerthings · 18/10/2022 10:51

oops sorry, hit post instead of delete, ignore.

Finerthings · 18/10/2022 10:50

It seems beyond ludicrous to need a 10 point plan to address this.

Sending in specific books fo

Codfishermen · 17/10/2022 09:28

Everyone saying it's not worth bothering about ... Having a kid bored and demotivated in a class where they could be excelling is horrible for them. I'd have him do GCSE independently

1dayatatime · 16/10/2022 16:26

A similar situation happened to my then Year 9 niece with French . Her parents simply put her in for a GCSE separately through a local college and she got an A*, she will be sitting her A Level French as a Year 11 next year.

There's not a lot the school can do about it when you wave a GCSE A* at them.

WhatsitWiggle · 16/10/2022 16:15

I'm making the mumsnet sin of not reading the full thread. But having read your plan of action, I wanted to ask if your school does regular in-year assessments? My DD school does an assessment for every subject every half term - partly as revision for the student, and partly for the progress against targets / reports / sets. Resetting is done termly.

If there are assessments, I'd ask as stage 2 if your DC could take the final year 8 assessment. That will give the school a proper indication of ability.

Pythonesque · 16/10/2022 16:00

If it does come to moving schools, I only know what I've read on here, but if you identified a suitable local school that WOULD support his German / general language learning appropriately, that provision would be I believe be something you could use as the basis of an appeal for a place.

Original poster
EverythingSortsEventually · 16/10/2022 15:38

I’d like to thank everyone who has contributed. (And apologies for the rant, thanks for letting me have it, it’s really helped)
I’ve had a good read through everything again and we have come up with a plan with the aim of trying to resolve this by half term (or at least have an action plan by half term and review later)

  1. Ask the head of department when resetting is likely to be. I have asked previously with no perfect answer. It was along the lines of, ‘when the exams take place which are usually at the end of the school year’. That’s a long time in a class well below my DC ability. Will push for a firm answer and if it’s soon ie after half term or after Christmas then wait it out. If not then we work our way down the list until we get a result.
  2. Ask whether it links to setting in other subjects. If it does link then we need to have the conversations about what other options are available by working down the list.
  3. Ask about differentiated work. Will see if DC can start working on GCSE content on their own in the class with the aim to sit the exam early (or even Y11 so will drop German at the end of Y9)
  4. Taking books made for German native speakers of the same age into the class to work through. This will allow DC to work through the german curriculum for the german equivalent of English lessons.
  5. Taking a book into the lesson written in German just to read and investigate options outside of school such as tutoring.
  6. Using the time to work on other subjects and investigate tutoring outside of school.
  7. Not to attend german lessons and what options are available eg, are there other lessons they could go to, work on other subjects in the library or something while getting a German tutor outside of school.
  8. Take it to the head of key stage
  9. Take it to head
  10. Take it to the governors
Other points which were made
  • keeping in mind EBacc and school results when having the conversations and asking whether the GCSE can be taken in Y11 if it has to be. Yes, this is very good point and will keep this in mind.
  • private school, this isn’t an option
  • Changing school, we would rather not as we prefer a local school and it was the only one with spaces. The next nearest with spaces is 20 miles away. However, I’m debating looking into other schools if, and only if, we get nowhere with this.
  • Is it worth bothering about? Probably not in the grand scheme of things, but yes, to us it is worth bothering about. My child is entitled to an education as much as everyone else’s.
Will post an update when we have a resolution. Let’s see how this week goes. I have hope.
OP posts:
TwitTw00 · 15/10/2022 21:09

CentralLondonLife · 15/10/2022 17:02

They are expected to have adaptations to be able to access the same curriculum, that is not the same as historic differentiation (ie dumbing down)

Show quote history

I think this is really semantics. I support children to access a learning objective at different levels. A fluent French speaker would not show progress in a lesson if they did the same task as beginners and that would be unacceptable.

CentralLondonLife · 15/10/2022 17:02

TwitTw00 · 15/10/2022 16:55

I teach mixed age classes so QFT isn't sufficient - we have just been Ofsteded and children are expected to be on different tasks within the same lesson. The internal lesson obs might not be 'officially' graded but essentially that is what we'd be getting told. It would be absolutely unacceptable for a fluent child to be doing the same as beginners in the language.

Show quote history

They are expected to have adaptations to be able to access the same curriculum, that is not the same as historic differentiation (ie dumbing down)

TwitTw00 · 15/10/2022 16:55

WhyCantNameLastMoreThanDay · 14/10/2022 22:01

Thats very pre September 2019
Differentiation is out
QFT, adaptation and adjustment now

No-one judges lessons and gives a grade surely? Against what criteria to be RI? Ofsted dont judge lessons so how can their grading system of RI be used?

Show quote history

I teach mixed age classes so QFT isn't sufficient - we have just been Ofsteded and children are expected to be on different tasks within the same lesson. The internal lesson obs might not be 'officially' graded but essentially that is what we'd be getting told. It would be absolutely unacceptable for a fluent child to be doing the same as beginners in the language.

latetothefisting · 14/10/2022 23:38

This seems completely nuts. If their reasoning is that he needs to be assessed to see what set he should be in, when is their plan for doing that, and why couldn't they do it as soon as he started? Surely it should be completely obvious that a pupil who until now had been educated entirely in German will be fluent in german?

Have they put him in bottom set for all other lessons op? If not, and they've accepted that he's, say top set maths, middle set English, what's the difference between that and german?

I would ask if ds can switch to a completely different subject rather than wasting his time there, and still take German gcse, even if you have to pay for it privately. Sounds like he would easily be able to pass it without any, or bare minimum of effort.

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