Music performance in school - what's normal?

While your daughter's school music experience is very poor, I don't actually think for your DD this should matter.

My sons are both reasonably musical. DS1 has graduated this year from his conservatoire and DS2 is going to Oxford to read music with an organ scholarship in October.
Their state schools were supportive and did provide a large number of performance opportunities, BUT it was their external musical education that mattered.

I can understand your frustration with he school (it would have seriously pissed me off too). Bear in mind though that if your DD decides to continue with music it's all the external training, the Saturday school, & the groups she participates in that will enable her to move forward.
Good luck with your DD's music making. 👍

I don't think you're unreasonable. DD3's school has music concerts each term and the staff encourage students to form bands and perform. They have a jazz orchestra, a traditional orchestra, an audition only chamber choir, a main choir that anyone can join, and a year 7 choir.

Ok so she’s doing heaps out of school (a couple of years ahead of my dd otherwise they would be crossing paths at a lot of these things incl NCO which is huge fun) - I don’t think you’re being unreasonable to expect more from school as other posters have outlined at their state schools. My dd gets so much out of school performance on top of NCO/conservatoire/local community wind band that I do think it’s a shame that’s missing. But I see you don’t want to move schools. Would you consider a switch at sixth form? I’m assuming you’d rule out a private school on ideological grounds also but maybe there’s a sixth form college that offers more?

This sounds massively disappointing and I’m so sorry for your DD. I won’t compare to my DD’s private school as that’s apples and oranges but I’ve come on to suggest looking at a music conservatoire for a Saturday school as well as/instead of her existing training? And also residential music camps at Easter and over the summer. There are heaps of high quality ones around and all offer bursaries if cost is an issue.

Sounds a bit rubbish. DD is Y7 and in an ensemble, orchestra and choir at her secondary (state) and goes to the music theory club. Since she started in September there have been multiple concerts in school and she's played at external events. She is absolutely loving being part of a big and busy music department, has found some lovely friends there and is very inspired by the older more advanced students. We chose the school because of its fantastic music department.

I suspect it isn't just the music department. It's probably also her peers. I know at my dc's comp the music teacher worked really hard at trying to give the opportunities, but they had about 8-10 children in the orchestra, maybe 15-20 in the choir and she had to lean heavily on children who played instruments to get enough to be worth running a concert of any description.
They've rarely had enough students to run GCSE music since my children have been there.

It wasn't for want of the music department. They tried.

@GCSEmusichelp thanks!

I can give you more information if you PM me. Sometimes, rather than moaning about what a school doesn't offer, it can be helpful to name specific ones which can then be checked out. So instead of saying "our school is useless", you could say "school X is able to offer A and school Y can offer B. Why can't we do similarly?" Apart from the fact we are literally on our knees now, most music teachers are really happy to help one another out because we recognise that the government and some SLTs don't value us, but we come into our own when it comes to showcasing the school.

I hope this makes sense. In addition to all the stuff I mentioned above, I organised a surprise leaving concert for our Director of Music last night. It was great fun but exhausting. I am also playing tomorrow as a favour in a concert full of "audience-friendly light classics" i.e. rubbish music in a bloody tent.

That's so sad. My DD loves her music and if anything there's too many opportunities :) she's in so many clubs. The music side of it was one of its big selling points when we picked the school though

OP I teach Music in a state school in a rural area. The school size is just over 1000 students (11-18).

In 2020-21 we didn't run any ensembles due to Covid. However, in September 21 we started up again. Because our kids come from a very wide area, we can't do things after school so they all have to happen at lunchtime. This year we have run:
Junior Choir (y7 & 8), Senior Choir (y9 - 13), Chamber Choir (y11 - 13)
Orchestra (grade 4+ for strings & brass, g6+ for upper woodwind)
Junior Orchestra - any grade
Jazz Band (y9 - 13)
Flute group
String group
Theory club
Cello group

There is one full-time and one 0.5 teacher. Strings and cellos are run by peris.

We held a concert in November with most ensembles performing and parents there. Our Carol Service was cancelled due to Covid but the Chamber Choir recorded a scaled down version. The Senior Choir sang Evensong in the nearest cathedral and later in the local church. We held another concert last week with most of the groups playing plus some solo items. I took the Junior Choir to sing in a local town's concert series and made up the programme with some solos from the choir members. 2 of the peris have put on short recitals with their pupils for those parents. Next week we are taking 50+ members of the Senior Choir on a short UK tour.

In terms of GCSE, we have 16 opting for September which is lower than normal but still fine. Our kids all perform to us in the first half term and then regularly after that. I have run several class orchestra sessions in my KS3 lessons so I have a good idea of what they can do. I also asked them to upload performances as part of our curriculum. So in my school your y8 DD would have played her flute or cello in lessons several times this year, could have joined the orchestra on either instrument, the flute group, string group and cello ensemble.

I think your DD's music teachers are either lazy or scared. As for the comments that Music is only taught properly in private schools, remarks like that really annoy me. Some of us are doing a decent job in spite of our subject being devalued by clueless Secretaries of State. Things have been hard in the last 2 years but there have been opportunities to look carefully at provision and make changes, which we have done.

It's disappointing and rubbish and unfair but I would concentrate your energies on out of school opportunities. Mine went to a state comp which was fantastic for music (yes, they do exist whoever said it was only private schools that had good music) ... she's lucky she has opportunities elsewhere. Others won't. A lot of work, but would she want to put on a charity concert, however small, with her friends?

OP your latest post is encouraging but the music teacher being actively unhelpful, I’d have a word with the head she sounds dreadful

I, too, feel very sorry for your DD. Music was my best subject at school too (though I was not as advanced/talented as your DD!), and although the school orchestra wasn’t any great shakes, I felt really appreciated by the music teacher for my abilities and enthusiasm, and my form tutor and senior staff were also encouraging. I really valued that acknowledgment from the school of all the effort I put in within school time and at weekends/holidays at county level.

I can understand ththat there might be more limited opportunities due to the fallout from the Covid pandemic, but for me what stands out from your posts is that the music teacher is uninterested and even got angry with you for raising it. I know people are stretched, but I would have expected some acknowledgement and understanding, and some nice conversations with your DD, at the very least.

I moved school for sixth form in order to do A-level music (I’d have been the only one at my first school), and it was wonderful to be in a school with an even stronger musical culture. Once again, the music teacher and senior team were engaged and encouraging, and through their networks I got involved in playing in the pit orchestra at the local amateur theatre, and got a couple of paid gigs.

I know your daughter doesn’t want to leave her friends at this stage, and I know she does lots of great musical things outside school, but I do think it would be worth looking at other schools to see if they offer better. A conversation with a couple of heads of music at other schools would be very revealing.

This is disgraceful, your poor DD. Mine are in primary school but have more opportunities than this. Music should be valued and celebrated.

I would absolutely escalate this to the head teacher. If you get nowhere and music is dd's gift then I would be taking to her about looking at other schools where her gifts would be nurtured and valued.

Is there no way they’d run it with 4? It sounds like it’s just not important to the school culture. Our school as 150 in a year (more in 6th form) but has around 70 / 80 in the KS4 / 5 choir.

is it worth a conversation with the school about the importance they place in creative subjects?

do they do musicals?

I moved my dd from one large state comp to another for y9 partly because music provision at the first one was so poor. (There were other reasons too.)

The first school rarely ran GCSE Music, let alone A-level, and the extra-curricular provision was a unison choir of about 5 girls singing Adele songs and a random ensemble of any instruments anyone played.

The second school couldn't be more different, with orchestra, big band, training band, several choirs including one that sings evensong at various cathedrals. The feeder schools get together to do a lot of music and concerts too, sometimes including the secondary and sometimes not.

DD is doing A-level Music and she gets to sing or play several times a term in concerts, church services, assemblies etc. Obviously Covid meant none of this happened for her GCSE, but it would have done otherwise.

It really does depend on the school and whether you have a really committed head of department and supportive headteacher.

That's very disappointing - it's been a number of years since I was at school, but I had learned piano outwith school and then learned the flute in school. Those were my 2 instruments that I used for the classes, and we had regular concerts including a 24hour musicathon where I had an hour slot just to play the piano, and even a school band trip abroad which gave us a chance to perform in public locations in Europe. And that was just a normal public school!

It's sad they they aren't encouraging her skills gained outwith school, sounds like it's just a badly run music department which is a real shame as that was the best bit of school for me.

I think it sounds massively disappointing. How many children wanted to do GCSE music?

My children are at a state school where music is given huge importance (as are sport, drama, dance). They have a lot of students who start with strong musical ability but also encourage people to start from scratch. There are always at least 2 GCSE classes plus an A level class. Off the top of ny head there are the following ensembles:

symphony orchestra
junior orchestra
concert band
junior concert band
jazz band
flute choir
clarenet choir
senior strings
saxophone group
chapel choir
barbershop
junior girls choir
gospel choir
senior boys choir non audition
junior choir non audition
senior choir non audition

plus various other non classical groups.

there are several large concerts each year, junior / senior musical, Carol concert, several chamber concerts and one or two rock / pop events.

during lockdown music lessons etc carried on over Google Meet. They did lots of other things with virtual choirs where people all recorded themselves individually singing certain songs and then the music technician did clever things splicing them all together and making videos. They did a few of these. When school went back but they were in bubbles they rehearsed outside / in marquees distanced in their bubbles. The Carol concert was in bubbles and live streamed.

many ensembles are led by 6th formers.

so it is definitely not just private schools who do music! I think it comes down to the culture of the school and the importance slt place on it.

I would be pushing for them to run gcse music - once it goes as an option it may never return.

im so sorry for yr dd.

I'm a teacher. What you say is awful. There is no reason on earth why someone at the bloody school couldn't listen to her play solo and make her feel valued for her talent and dedication.

If it was sports...

Sounds like GCSE music when I took it 16 yrs ago. The teachers only ever focused on those creating songs using the music software on the computer. I never played in class etc and I preferred to hand write my music compositions. Got predicted a shit grade because I didn't show any "skill" in class (because they only listened to the computer based pieces or singers, and I could only play the separate parts of my composition in the keyboard).

I actually got a good grade in the end as compositions were sent away to be marked, and whoever marked mine obviously didn't mind a handwritten piece. I played grade 7 clarinet for my performance so got an A for that (anything above a grade 5 played well was an A). I also did alright in the exam. Overall I found gcse music to be a joke. Everything I learnt about music worth knowing was from my piano and clarinet teachers.