How do Asians and East Europeans e.g. manages to successfully to get their kids to revise long hours?

@Abuildingwith4wallsandtmrinsid The issue however is that when children are young it can be difficult to know what inspires them, while it's important they learn the basics re maths, writing, reading, putting a case together, etc. When they are a little older, they need to know that they must respect authority because chances are they will need to respect a boss in later life (unless they run the shop in which case they will need to learn to respect the board of directors, or even just clients and staff). Education is not just important because of the subjects it teaches you IMO - it's also important because it teaches you that in life you often need to do stuff you don't like, and you need to say yes when you want to say no, and if you make a commitment you need to stick to that. I hire people as part of my job - the ability to show me they can see a project through, work as a team and as individuals, work with clients, etc, is very, very important. Many of those skills are learnt at school.

I am a high achiever and high earner and so is my husband and I want my children to be able to explore their own talents and uniqueness when they are teens. I want them to question authority and find themselves. Just as I did - my parents did not push me into anything nor did my DH’s, but admittedly we were educationally privileged and financially middle class.

Russia and China are autocractic societies where being a free thinker and questioning authority, even in education, is frowned upon. Teaching is of a high standard but spoon fed. That’s the opposite of what I want for my children. India is a very classist society etc. And yes, I have spent time in and lived in these societies, including going to university in Russia for a few months.

We are very lucky where we live that our children don’t have to spend their childhoods and teenage years working for hours every day. When you get to working life, especially at the top, emotional regulation, team leadership, empathy, knowing yourself etc all just as important as being good at your job and working hard. Our working environments are less hierarchical than in some other societies too and our education system feeds into that.

I don’t think working hard should just equal academic work. I don’t think every child is cut out for a huge focus on academic work. I think every human has their own distinct talents and only if their IQ and cognitive ability is high should they be pushed academically (and only in so far as it inspires them and gets them in the flow). I believe other children suffer in schools having to do GCSEs etc when it would be far better for their confidence and their skills if they were learning a trade properly that they could be passionate (and hard working) about. Of course, a basic amount of maths and English and general knowledge is required for life but it should not come with making kids feel lesser/exam pressure. Being labelled with a low GCSE grade age 16 is demoralising. I think kids should be taught lots of practical knowledge and team work that sets them up for life. They should be in school learning about stuff that inspires them.

I think this because I grew up in a country where trades are paid a high wage and are valued highly if they work hard and do a great job. The education system is also geared towards this and making sure there are loads of good quality apprenticeships available from 16.
So I don’t think academics should be the be and end all at all. I do think children should grow up to have duties, responsibilities, be a team player, be honest, chip in etc. but that can be done just as well with giving them chores and a role at home/casual jobs etc Learning is much more than academics. I have some friends who are in the building trade and take their kids into the workshop from an early age to make things etc. That is just as important as doing extra maths over the summer. Or if you are talented at art or writing etc - by all means share what ever talents or skills you have with your kids.

So I believe schools and parents should focus on helping children find their own unique talents and encouraging that.
Some of my children didn’t do much academics over lockdowns but they did learn to cook, clean their rooms, read the news, lots of progress on an instrument for one, another became very very fit - it wasn’t all about academics. The one who is really bright taught himself the Further Maths A level syllabus age 14, because he wanted to.

I will write this and then seek cover (!), but I wonder how many people who advocate the 'let kids be kids and have fun' are financially/career-wise high achievers/earners themselves.

"You only have to read mumsnet, especially over lockdown, to see the attitude is let kids be kids, leave the homeschooling if you're struggling, they've had a hard time let them enjoy the summer etc etc. My opinion won't be popular and as I said it is a generalisation but it is what it is."

I've noticed this a lot. It's always on threads when someone says they get their children to do some work over the summer holidays. Some people appear to be genuinely horrified at the thought of a few hrs of maths over the entire holidays.
I have always encouraged my dcs to do some extra work. What that has done is helped them stay on top of what they're doing and given them confidence. That confidence then extends to a general love of learning.
I'm not in the slightest bit authoritarian but my dcs understand that working hard now will give them choices later.

Generalising, but its a culture thing. A high value is placed on education from basically birth and aspirations to become doctors or lawyers. You only have to read mumsnet, especially over lockdown, to see the attitude is let kids be kids, leave the homeschooling if you're struggling, they've had a hard time let them enjoy the summer etc etc. My opinion won't be popular and as I said it is a generalisation but it is what it is.

This is so true^

My DD is sitting GCSEs now and has been revising each evening, and 4 hours each day at the weekend on top of homework for this past year, l do not have to drive her as all her friends do at least that, and her school strongly encourages this as a minimum.
During lockdown she was at her desk at 8.30 online learning until 4.30 just as she would have been at school. I have sat with her every Saturday morning and if we are home some Sundays.to read, play educational games, supervise homework, her whole school life until this last year. It has often been light hearted and fun but always with an educational basis.
She also plays an instrument and has other hobbies.

I went to a dreadful school, came out with very mediocre grades, no one cared, fights daily were the norm, and aspiration was low.
I had to fight very hard, work incredibly hard, and attend night school for an access course, and do a degree at night school, to achieve the life l wanted....all along the way l have seen the huge advantage it is to be disciplined, and well educated, (and l don't mean just privately educated)
I have worked with and employed people from all walks of life and l can categorically say that parents do their children no favours by not placing a high value on education.
Whether they become Bankers or artists is not the point it is about having choices, and the education to have a full and fullfilling working life.

@MangshorJhol - and what we are also getting now is mental health crying wolf. So my DD tells me some of her friends go to the school counsellor to complain about their “mentally abusive” parents - typically Asian with strong emphasis on routines and music practice (but also wholesome nutritious food, co-sleeping all of that). The kids are not mentally abused, they just know that some of their peers have less obligations at home so they are rebelling against it. There are of course tons of kids with actual mental health issues too, so I am just talking about the rebel type second generation standing up their parents - my daughter has a few friends in this category. They will make great lawyers, but they are not embarrassed to “expose” their parents so it is more a cultural conflict playing out.

@MangshorJhol - that sounds great. How old are your children and how do you enforce minimum screen time? Because we find that really difficult. My children are in UK grammar schools with lots of Asian children and their parents are also struggling now with zombie screen kids/phone addictions. They are all still doing work and music too, but the screen addiction is there. Other than keeping them busy with hobbies/talking to them/family outings it is very hard to get away from screens without fights, especially when they are older - of course, some kids are very motivated to work on their own, but that tends to be the exception rather than the norm.

Yes to that ⬇️⬇️
I think middle class UK parents are pushy too. They all pretend to be relaxed but engage tutors and send kids to everything from young, piano, swimming, prep at home for 11+.

And that ⬇️⬇️
In the UK, there is less social mobility through a very fragmented education system across the country.

Im always interested to see how English parents automatically think that if a (first or second) immigrant child is doing well it’s because the parents are awful and pressuring them. (And of course this.is.bad)
Whilst, at the same time, thinking that white English boys are at a disadvantage because if the system so thats why they don’t do as well (but it has nothing to do with the parents’ attitude to school)

And all the while they are also very happy to coach their dcs for the 11+, will move house to be in the ‘right’ area, take their dcs to multiple activities etc etc.
BUT it’s still bad for a child to do some/more homework if they are doing well 🤪🤪

@Ferngreen the legal mechanism only applies if the parent is genuinely struggling. So my parents in their detached house and who own commercial property have zero chance to suing me lol. A lot of people my age still give their parents allowances of a few hundred dollars but that is hardly going to support most people. I have cousins who give more but their mum has around £800 of her own pension so actually they are just topping up.

@onthefencesitter
and there is a legal mechanism for people to sue their kids if their kids don't care for them (exception for abuse) and also very strict drug laws so i guess homelessness doesn't occur at the same rate as London
Aaaah, that would make a big difference to how much effort I made at getting my DCs to study --- if they had to provide for me in my old age!!

And strict drug laws. Can't see that happening here though.

@Ferngreen I never saw a homeless person in my life until I was 10 and visited Paris. I am not saying there are no homeless people in my home country cos that would be a generalization and I have seen some homeless people but there is far less homelessness. my Londoner MIL who visited my country was asking me what happened to homeless people. I said well there is 89% home ownership, and there are some rental flats for those who can't afford, and there is a legal mechanism for people to sue their kids if their kids don't care for them (exception for abuse) and also very strict drug laws so i guess homelessness doesn't occur at the same rate as London.

So I don't think I saw a great deal of 'poverty' firsthand, i see much more poverty in London for example. Though probably according to the measures, my country probably doesnt stack up well, but its a lot easier to hide one's poverty if you live in an intergenerational household where the total household income is higher. But the kids in my home country spend the most number of hours on homework.
But I think our awareness of bread and butter issues isn't derived from seeing 'poor people'; honestly many of the poor people in my home country are poor because they came of age when the country was poor so that doesn't really have much relation to my own circumstances. We were just taught from a young age we had to rely on ourselves, support our families ourselves and buy property; the government might subsidize some of the cost but there was no 'free lunch'.My parents still have problems grasping that healthcare is free at the point of use

Compared to here, the tabloid press peddle absolute untruths about the welfare system like you can get a free council flat if you are pregnant at 16, benefit claimants can afford huge TVs and holidays, you can get a 10 bedroom house if you have a lot of children and a nice life.

Maybe it's partly the size of the population in the Asian countries that the people come from. I think if I Iived in a country with a population of 1.5 billion and very visible poverty I'd have worked harder at school.

I'm in Scotland - there is a lot of disadvantage but mainly as a result of drugs/drink/mental health problems.
But every NT child gets a chance at 13 years of free education. If they don't take advantage of that it's a waste of their time.

We are South Asian in the US. DH grew up in the States and I didn’t.
We are not remotely authoritarian but we maintain boundaries. I am their parent not their mate. From a very young age my kids have been doing a little bit of ‘homework’ every day. It starts off as say a board game, then a worksheet and some colouring. But we instilled it in them from day 1. So there is no argument about homework. They come home and get it done, and then move on.
One of us tries to be there when they get home so we are around as well. (we both work FT).
No gaming and minimal screen time. Kids watch and play plenty of sport though.

Both my kids are reasonably talented musicians. They both wanted to learn an instrument and I said fine, but you have to practice- 10 mins a day to start. We supervised it- had a reward chart and lots of praise till music practice becomes simply part of the routine.

And praise. I praise my kids when I can see they have worked hard at something. I don’t just say ‘oh that was marvellous darling.’ My kids know if I say ‘oh you did X very well’ I absolutely mean it.

DH and I both read a lot. We have read endlessly to both kids. We have family reading time. Our house is full of books. We always carry a book with us- it’s the default. If we are waiting somewhere for something I would whip out a book (both can read now) and read. They are both good readers although with slightly different tastes and preferences.

I am an academic and one of the things I notice is that I get a lot of undergraduates who are unused to being wrong and being told that they are wrong (in a non punitive way). Constructive criticism is something that’s really important to give children. The way I see it we work as a team. So if one of them has a concert we figure out what the weaknesses are in a piece. They work to fix it. We practice till we are at a point where it’s concert ready. So I can say to my kids: ‘your intonation in this section is not good at all’ and they won’t dissolve into tears or have a tantrum.

For the record we have never hit our kids. There is some horrible stereotyping on this thread. We don’t sleep train. I co-slept and breastfed both. They have plenty of play dates. They have loads of books and toys. We go on lots of holidays. They are very very privileged kids in many ways but I am trying to ensure they are not spoilt.

Probably same country as some PPs. Mix of cultural and environmental factors. Discipline, conformity, regular testing from young and national standardised testing at 12, 16 and 18. Milder version of the way Russia and China train gymnasts. Told you have to sweep the streets for a living if you got Bs and Cs.

My old school sends over 50 to Oxbridge, more to RG and US Ivy leagues, a lot on scholarships. If you are not performing academically you are streamed to a lower set school and class from 13. This is not necessarily bad as they tailor to your level; some kids are late bloomers. If you still don't catch up you end up in a polytechnic or train for a vocation at 16. Whole nation effectively a grand scale grammar system.

Early years all learning through play. Primary school starts later at 7 but goes intense by 9. Secondary at 13, it is full on - everyone has to do music sport arts or clubs.

Parents work long hours. Flexi or part time unheard of. Mums work. Only crazy rich Asian types don't work... but they have to host charity galas etc, which is work. Working as a cleaner when kids are at school gets you more respect than being a housewife. Multi generational households so grandmothers can help. In return kids looks after their elderly, even give them some of their salary. Patriarchal - no SAHDs back home but in UK i meet a few.

STEM bias - guaranteed A*s as long as you practice, unlike humanities subjects, where you could construct a fluent and flawless argument and only get an A because the marker didnt like your style. I can write and spell better than my British native English DH...

I'm lazy (copied homework daily for 10 years) and an outlier in that I didn't have strict parents (but school was strict). But I thought that was a universal thing with Boomer parents. They don't give a shit about parenting like we do.

I think middle class UK parents are pushy too. They all pretend to be relaxed but engage tutors and send kids to everything from young, piano, swimming, prep at home for 11+.

I find my home country system more meritocratic, at least back then. My school had kids from very diverse families. They all do well, a number of impressive entrepreneurs so not all useless robots.

In the UK, there is less social mobility through a very fragmented education system across the country.

DH is Korean and I’m English, so my angle is quite unique. DH wanted to raise our DC with the Korean attitude to education, and while I was sceptical at first, I do think the west could learn a lot from it. In our house:

Each DC has to do a set, age-appropriate amount of study to earn screen time. Fundamentally we expect the DC to work as hard as they can and achieve their potential- whether that is straight A*s or straight Cs.

Effort and hard work should be expected and rewarded. There are also times- year 11, for example, when it really is necessary to knuckle down and put the hours in. DS1 is doing his GCSEs atm and is doing 4 hours of revision on school nights and 10 hours a day at weekends- why wouldn’t you be at this stage?

He isn’t being tied to a desk but is ambitious and knows the level of effort required. He is used to studying and working hard, having done it from a young age.

Parents have a role to play- the vast majority of teenagers don’t have the discipline or maturity to know the importance of studying hard.

This. Absolutely.

Avery interesting thread.

That's a shame. Admittedly DD's old school would be described as a "leafy comprehensive" in mumsnet terms, so being brainy wasn't anything to be ashamed of. As there are no grammar schools in our county, and the nearest grammar schools are independent, DD's old school was truly comprehensive with a mix of students of all academic capabilities.

They also set for maths and English quite early on so, unfortunately the lower sets had all the disruptive pupils, but it meant that the pupils in the higher sets could get on with their work uninterrupted.

It has to be said that most of the students would have had supportive parents because we don't live in a deprived area.

@RampantIvy that's interesting isn't it?
No 11+ where I live but no aspirational schools either. Instead, it's all about bringing down peope who ARE asporational for being too full of themselves :(

I'll add that it's wasn't just been forced to study, but brainwashed into thinking that studying and grades is all that matters, over friends or anything else. Tutors too.

I live in SE Asia now where shopping malls are awash with enrichment centres, so after school classes/tutors for very young kids, primary and younger. They start very young and get used to working hours. It's very depressing to see.

I was one of those kids with authoritarian parents. My parents didn't actually start until I was about 13 but they were very hard on me, making me study in front of them for hours each day, way before exams started. Even though I loved learning, I studied because I was forced to. I got a rare place in medical school very burned out, didn't know how to think or study on my own and failed out, depressed and very angry. I've never forgiven my parents and now keep my distance. I don't want them to inflict that damage on my kids.

So yes you may see them get top grades when they are young and compliant but you don't see everything behind it like the emotional damage or where they will end up. Not every Asian or Russian kid gets great grades and goes to a top school.

But we have no grammar schools, not 11+ etc... where I live either.

Neither do we, which is a good thing IMO. DD's comprehensive school was very aspirational. They always had one or two go to Oxbridge, and always aspired for more. They were keen to promote to parents the post 16 destinations that the students went to, especially RG universities.

My mum would read to me for hours before bed, we had all our meals together, open and healthy debates at the table (even as a young child, my opinion mattered). I read the broadsheet paper from when I was 6/7 (but again, this was totally self driven and probably because I saw my parents read the newspaper every morning), we baked, we did gardening on our balcony, went to museums, parks, played lots of cards and board games.

That pretty much describes DD's childhood. She struggled a little with maths because she had a useless teacher so she had a tutor for maths GCSE and ended up with a high A*. She has a good work ethic and has to work hard to achieve well. It doesn't come naturally to her.

She achieved well at school with mostly A and A* at GCSE and all As at A level. She is just about to sit her finals in a STEM degree at a well regarded university.

@examitis - I guess I would discuss the cost of living with my kids. The cost of a house, the average wages for different types of job. The qualifications required and competition for them. I say to mine that there are lots of routes to get where you want, but some are harder or take longer (especially if you do not get good qualifications as a child - you can study later, but usually you would have to work at the same time or take out a loan).

some jobs are impractical as the chance is very low (eg NBA basketball player when parents are short) - they are welcome to try, and any sport is good for health, but definitely don’t make it your only plan. Knowing the over-arching reason for studying hard might help. It gives you options.

@examitis I think that the environment ahs a lot to say about the attitude of children.
Of course you can teach them to work hard but if the environment they are in is against that (as in only nerds do that - and being a nerd IS bad - or if you need to work hard its because you are stupid so you dont want to be seen as working hard), it's very hard to still insist on them going above and beyond iyswim.

Eg I agree with @mathanxiety about resillience. But it's very hard to teach resilience to a child who is able and has to make no effort at all to actually do well.
Dc1 was in that place and of course, they reached a point when they hit a wall. I knew they would. I just wish they would have done that 5 months before their A levels.
That's the same child who is still amazed that one their friends who is straight A student (think Oxbridge wo any bissues) is still working hard, revising etc... No amount of explaining that the fact that friend IS a straight A student is BECAUSE they still go over board work wise made sa difference.

From reading MN, I suspect where you live also has something to do with it. More affluent areas might have a different approach. Where I am going to a University such as Oxford or Durham equates the person being a pompous twat. Not someone who worked hard let alone smeting to aspite to. The local Uni/colleges is seen as amazing because 'it's hand on work', not all the crappy theoritical stuff from <insert big Uni not far away>.
But we have no grammar schools, not 11+ etc... where I live either....

@BuddhaAtSea , I am in a similar position than and I fully agree with you both about expectations and about the attitude from school.
It's very hard to find the balance between what you want to teach them and what teir environment is teaching them.

For balance, I will also add that there are some positives from the english way of raising children that I have embraced with joy. But not about academic attitude.