JAGS and Alleyns Oxbridge

Yes, I know they managed out pupils in the past at the 11+ transition point but the school policy changed about 5 years ago with the change in head.

Oh, and @365sleepstogo, the vast majority of my year group had not come from JAPS. Additionally, I know of several students who were in my sister's year at JAPS who were denied a place at JAGS. I do not think this is the reason for poor Oxbridge results, personally (although my experience is obviously almost 10 years old!).

@WomanInWindow I left in 2013. You're right - it was self sabotage of the school and I never really understood it myself. I rationalised it as they only really cared about %A/A* in GCSE and A level - people didn't seem to really judge schools based on %going to Oxbridge. The teachers honestly and truly did seem to actively want us to do less well sometimes. We didn't even finish the syllabus for our A level Biology / Chemistry, let alone go home for the holidays with revision guides made by the school as friends at City / SPGS did.

That being said, these things do come out in the wash (I ended up at medical school successfully), but this was very much despite the school rather than because of it.

Isn't it arguably the sign of a good school to encourage pupils to apply for the right university for them, rather than just hurling them all at Oxbridge? It's not even just about whether a student is bright enough or 'good' enough - it's whether the course, the atmosphere, the college system, the teaching style suits that student. I wouldn't be judging a school on the percentage of pupils who apply - I'd be looking more holistically at leaver destinations. And if you're asking the question because you're looking at future schools for your kids (I don't think you said), then I would say that you're putting a disproportionate emphasis on Oxbridge entry in relation to a child who's probably still under 10.

Let it go and have a glass of wine or something I'd say.

Re Eton, for the coming year Eton have advised current lower 6th applicants need to have 11 x grade 9's and be taking 4 A levels to consider Oxbridge. The school has received around 48 offers this year for the cohort due to take their A levels this summer.

I think youll find that those figures in the Spectator might combine in year and gap year applications,certainly I had one that got in on the 2020 cycle and the number of boys that I know that didnt apply in year doesnt tie in with 208 in year applications..
Lots wait and see what exams results they got and then apply...gap years are very popular

@nolanscrack

Eton doesnt do that,but never mind

The stats that come out every now & then seem to consistently show c 200 applications per year from Eton [e.g. see this article - 208 applications in I suppose 2020 (it's a little unclear which year this'd be for entry in) www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-oxbridge-files].

How many sixth form leavers does Eton have every year? Must be 200 and something, right? The data on their website on A level & pre-U results shows 800-odd passes in total in 2020 (www.etoncollege.com/inside-the-classroom/exam-results/) ... assuming an average of 3.0 exams per entrant that'd imply about 70-75% applying to Oxbridge, if it's more like 3.5 exams per entrant you'd be closer to 85%, if 4.0 95%, etc - was it so wrong for me to say that "near enough" all kids there apply?

Eton doesnt do that,but never mind

School league tables very definitely have their uses, but you really get the most of them when comparing apples with apples [e.g. Maths & English GCSE results at two non-selective comprehensives in two different parts of the country which have near-identical demographics].

'Oxbridge applications' or even Oxbridge admissions per pupil etc, is a pretty flaky stat because it doesn't control for a number of other factors, some of which are alluded to earlier in this thread (including differences in entry requirements, differences in the courses applied for, etc).

That a school like Eton makes an Oxbridge application for near enough every last one of its pupils is sort of taking the piss given how weak the worst of those applications are at the margins, but it's I suppose rational in the current grade-inflated climate, with so many tens of thousands of pupils nationally meeting the Oxbridge minimum standard every year.

It wouldn't surprise me if there's a move to a better, hopefully fairer and more transparent, means of 18+ assessment & uni application etc before too many years have passed.

“ @365sleepstogo I'm guessing you went to Imperial...”

Not a medic, in HR or have ever been an employee of Imperial but I am not going to say anything more than that

@DrPrincessFluffyToYou - that is quite bizarre and doesn’t make sense to me, it’s self sabotage by JAGS if they do that. However, I won’t argue against your personal experience. When did you leave the school?
I know alumni who left in the last decade and they didn’t have that experience.

@WomanInWindow - if Highgate et al had a larger number of applicants without increased rates of success then it seems to me that there are lots of students who apply that are not suitable for Oxbridge. Is that poor guidance from the schools who are trying to boost their Oxbridge applicant numbers?
How many Y13 students are there at these school? Is there anywhere we can find this data online?

JAGS/Alleyn’s are committed to their 4+ and 7+ intake with no-one weeded out at the 11+ level. This will lead to seemingly lower results compared with schools that take children at only 13+ who have been extensively coached and tutored such that they are working at GCSE level in Y7/8.
That’s absolutely fine if it suits your child and family.

Interpreting league table data needs critical thinking and once that is applied then you would see that the differences are minuscule.

@WomanInWindow looking at how many apply without taking into account the size of the sixth forms or the overall acceptance rate of the student body is a odd stat to focus on.

Highgate's sixth form is 30% larger than Alleyns and they send a similar proportion of their total students to Oxbridge.

That some schools have more student that apply but with a lower acceptance rate would suggest some students are not getting proper guidance if anything.

[quote WomanInWindow]@strawberryband Well, comparing Alleyn's to Highgate as you suggest, Highgate had 92 applicants and Alleyns had 39.

I had the impression both these Dulwich schools were very competitive to get into so it does surprise me to see the profile of their cohorts seemingly quite different to other top London selective schools.

@DrPrincessFluffyToYou This is bizarre though. Why would they discourage you? Isn't it in their interests as well?[/quote]
If a school enters 92 applicants and only gets 28 offers, why is this a good thing??

Alleyns may only send down 39, but it has a better acceptance rate than Highgate, 36% compared to 30%.

Alleyns have a superior acceptance rate better than Eton, Kings, Perse , Tiffin, Brighton, NLCS and City of London School for Girls.

If I'm choosing a prep I don't care if the school sends 100's of kids to a particular senior school for 11+, I want to know how many are actually getting offers.

But @WomanInWindow ultimately its up to you what you do with these wonderful stats- is it important that large numbers of 6th formers apply? Or is it important the percentages that are getting offers? For me it's the percentage getting offers.

@365sleepstogo I'm guessing you went to Imperial...

I'm well aware how the entry to training works but I appreciate you outlining it anyway because I know most people are not. It's just a fact that the most desirable foundation programme places are in certain locations, and so are certain jobs in training. And very, very, very often, who do you find in those jobs? ...Oxbridge doctors.

Put it down to what you will.

I went to JAGS. They massively discouraged us from applying to oxbridge, and I would go as far as to say sabotaged applications (an extreme claim I know!). They relied on students doing well intrinsically having been academically selected on admission, and thought their job was more to “bring the girls down a peg or two” rather than help us to achieve. I understand there is now a new headmistress, so perhaps things are better, but if numbers of applications are still similar then I would wager they are not.

[quote DPLMom]@strawberryband I think OP asks a very fair question. Schools below Jags in ranking (some names she’s mentioned above) have more Oxbridge applicants than Jags and Alleyns. Getting in is a completely different matter and helps with a highly academic intake but OP is asking about applications. I wonder why the girls are not applying.

Having gone through the 13+ process, the cat scores are a good way to go for/avoid certain schools, so I wonder if something similar goes on in sixth forms in terms of an automatic selection.[/quote]
There are many factors at play here.

Jags is an all through school, girls coming in at 4+ who stay till 18, and as common with many all through girls, at 16 some girls go off to mixed 6th form. Comparing to a grammar like say Tiffin that has massive oversubscription at 11+ entry and regarded as top 10 and importantly has no fees, doesn't make much sense to me. Similar to Perse school, it's in Cambridge, so no surprise on its Oxbridge number.

It would make more sense to compare the stats of JAGS with schools like Putney and Wimbledon High School. Allens with Bancrofts or Highgate. i.e like for like.

“@365sleepstogo Oxbridge is a great place to read medicine especially if seeking entry into top training programmes which value early publications and conferences.”

It really doesn’t confer any advantage at all.
Unlike many other degrees, medical schools have to fulfil certain requirements as outlined by the regional school and GMC - all doctors have to be trained, at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels, to certain standards and have evidence to support this.
The training becomes more diverse during postgraduate years as different trusts may provide differing highly specialised services that a doctor may wish to train in. Doctors move regions and countries for training.

When applying for training posts there is scoring system that is points based and the university you went to doesn’t get a point at all.
Research/presentations generally has a couple of points allocated and it doesn’t differentiate between a PhD and your name on the odd paper.

Everyone goes to conferences- it’s a requirement and there is study leave and funding for this for doctors - more for non-consultant grades (junior doctors in old money) than consultants.

In some specialties it is common to take time out to do a PhD (during specialist registrar training - in old money terms) but, again,
the vast majority of hospital doctors didn’t qualify from Oxbridge but undertaking a PhD or masters is not uncommon.

Anyway, I digress - sorry OP!

@strawberryband I think OP asks a very fair question. Schools below Jags in ranking (some names she’s mentioned above) have more Oxbridge applicants than Jags and Alleyns. Getting in is a completely different matter and helps with a highly academic intake but OP is asking about applications. I wonder why the girls are not applying.

Having gone through the 13+ process, the cat scores are a good way to go for/avoid certain schools, so I wonder if something similar goes on in sixth forms in terms of an automatic selection.

You quote schools higher in the league tables than JAGS and wonder why they have more kids going to Oxbridge, why do you think??

Tiffins and Henrietta are the top 4 state schools in the UK for goodness sake. The other privates all rank higher than JAGS.

The 'something else' going on , is that these are more competitive schools , perceived as 'harder' to get into and these schools can afford to choose more academic girls than JAGS. That's the difference.

The differences reflect their ranking , but these in themselves aren't huge. If Oxbridge entry means a lot to you, you should concentrate your selection on the top 10 schools private and top 10 state, and hope you're child is bright enough, rather than wondering why all private schools aren't exactly the same.