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Do you like your system?

60 replies

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 02/03/2022 17:53

I'm in America, so our system for school placement is very different to England (I believe Scotland is similar to here). Where ever you live, your DC go to the school for that address. You never apply for schools (Unless you choose to go to Private School). You never worry about where you will end up, or if siblings will be split. No being upset that you did not get the same school as a friend (unless you, or they, move out of district) or choosing a school just because friends are going there. Every year I watch on this board (and the Primary board) the anxiety parents and kids go through in the lead up to decision day. Then the upset so many feel when they dont get the school they want. Being put on waiting lists and maybe having your school change (maybe even more then once) as offers come from waiting list schools. As an outsider looking in I always have to wonder "why do it this way?" So I'm curious, do you like your system? Or would you rather a system (like in America and apparently Scotland) where you just go to your local school and never have to think about which school you would get? (this is only in regards to public school, not private)

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YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 03/03/2022 01:19

@KobaniDaughters I did say (not in my op, but later) that I did not know for sure how it would work in very large cities. I didnt bring up Charter Schools (we do have them here, anyone can apply and they are picked by lottery). I had not even thought about Magnet schools. I have heard about them but will confess I have no idea how they work. The LA system sounds horrible.
I work in a Middle School and its very different to what you have described. Our kids have 7 classes a day. Math, Reading, Writing, Science and Social Studies. The other two classes are what we call UA (Unified Arts). For 8th Graders that can be a Full Year of Spanish or French (that earns you a credit at the high school). Any grade can also choose a Full Year of Band or Chorus (or a mix of Band and Chorus). Everyone has to take Health too (for one trimester, before they leave Middle School, usually taken in 7th Grade). We do Trimesters so other then the Full Year choices the UA classes change 3 times a year. We have PE, Tech Ed, FACS, Computers, Art, General Music (not band/chorus), 8th grade can also choose Guitar or Keyboarding lessons. Your system sounds awful. Middle School is when kids should be "testing their wings" giving everything a try before they head off to High School. I did say that America was huge and that I was sure things were not the same everywhere. It certainly seems things can be very, very different in even the most basic ways.

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KobaniDaughters · 03/03/2022 00:52

The situation you describe does not exist across the states @YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer as you mentioned NYC I live in LA where your home school (the one you’re in catchment for) HAS to give every child in its catchment a place. BUT our local MS no family from my DS year went because frankly it’s crap and it sits under the intersection of two major freeways.

We had immense stress applying in 5th Grade for Middle Schools - we are in LAUSD but can’t apply for schools in Santa Monica or Culver City for example as they have their own districts. Our options were

  1. The catchment “home” school
  2. By lottery to charter schools
  3. Using magnet points to get into either a full school or a specific program within a school
  4. Applying under gifted and talented schemes for SAS programs within other schools
  5. Private
  6. Fine a way of getting into a smaller and better funded school district (eg if a parent works in Santa Monica you can apply to SM school even if you don’t live in the district) but you have to be released from your home district which is a ballache of paperwork

We applied to 4 charter schools, one school through magnet points (you can only apply to one and have to had accumulated magnet points throughout elementary which is itself a stupid and outdated system and relies on playing the game and knowing what the rules are) and to an SAS program. We didn’t get lottery places at any of the charter schools. If you get offered a magnet place you have to take it otherwise you lose all your accumulated magnet points which could be a problem when you get to HS.

I hate the American middle school system. The kids do English, history, maths and science then have one other subject - most schools you get an elective but I decided it was insane for my son not to learn a language so we put him into the magnet program so he doing a language as his 5th subject. This means he hasn’t had lessons in art, music, drama, RE, geography since elementary school. One of the many reasons we’re moving back to the U.K.!!

The system you describe is all well and good if you live in a small town with one school and it’s a good one but is def not the experience if you are in major metropolitan areas. If we’d fucked up on magnet points or he didn’t get high enough on OLSAT scores in 3rd grade then we’d be forced to go to the terrible “home” school where we live in catchment

Same goes for elementary - people buy houses to get their kids into the local school, our elementary has parents SLEEPING OUTSIDE THE SCHOOL up to 48 hours before applications open for those outside of the catchment to try to get a place.

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 03/03/2022 00:27

@Fridgeorflight

One thing I don't understand about American schools is the use of GPA for university applications. I don't understand how assessments are standardised between schools to ensure that the GPA from one school isn't more generous than another. Are external exams not available in subjects other than SATs?
Thats a good question that I never really thought about. Here in America the top classes are called AP courses. Those do have external exams that I believe are the same every where. They also are "weighted" more in a GPA. The harder the level of the class the more its worth. That way if you get a B in a AP Level class you are not getting a lower GPA then someone who gets an A in a class for kids with the lowest ability.

Here there are several different things you need to include in your application so they get a "bigger picture" of your abilities. It's not just one test (the SATS or ACT) or just the school work you did (GPA), its all of that. Plus Letters of Recommendation and the answers you give in your Essay questions. They also want to know about your extra curricular activities. My middle son was in National Honor Society (a group for well rounded high achieving high school students), this was a big plus for him. They want to know about what clubs and sports you belong to. What Community Service you do. They are generally looking for well rounded students. But every college/university is different of course. Some are much, much harder to get into. Others are really easy to get into. Most fall somewhere between the two.

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Fridgeorflight · 03/03/2022 00:11

One thing I don't understand about American schools is the use of GPA for university applications. I don't understand how assessments are standardised between schools to ensure that the GPA from one school isn't more generous than another. Are external exams not available in subjects other than SATs?

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 02/03/2022 23:29

@MonkeypuzzleClimber

**Though New York has higher population density level than London. Does the 'everyone to the catchment school' really work there. Or perhaps it works only with bussing?

Apparently you can choose school in New York:

steinhardt.nyu.edu/research-alliance/research/projects/high-school-choice-new-york-city

Other big cities in the US seem to have similar systems

I know New York has an "apply for Middle School" scheme. I would not be surprised to learn that other very large cities may have different ways of setting up schools. We also have things here called Charter Schools which I did not include in my original explanation, because I did not want to get things too complicated. But remember that most of America is not a giant city. Most of America is towns and small cities. I can only speak about the places I know about, but I do have friends all over the country so my knowledge is not completely limited to where I live.
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MonkeypuzzleClimber · 02/03/2022 23:22

**Though New York has higher population density level than London. Does the 'everyone to the catchment school' really work there. Or perhaps it works only with bussing?

Apparently you can choose school in New York:

steinhardt.nyu.edu/research-alliance/research/projects/high-school-choice-new-york-city

Other big cities in the US seem to have similar systems

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 02/03/2022 23:01

@lljkk where did you grow up? Other then New York City which has this "apply for Middle School" set up I've never heard of other places that do this. But again, like I said previously, America is HUGE so I only know about the places I know. Very large cities may do things differently then smaller cities and towns. Are you talking about Charter Schools? I did not include them in my discussion because I did not want to make things too complicated with all the possible differences there are. I dont doubt your experience (especially if you are from a large city) just curious where you had to apply to get into a public school. Was this for all schooling (Elementary, Middle and High)? Or were you in an area that implemented busing? That was a big thing in some areas in the 70s and 80s. Not sure if busing is still going on these days.

@BendingSpoons I can only speak for my area of course. If you move out of your schools district you have to change school. Especially if you move to a new town/city. Sometimes if you move within a town/city and your new address is allocated a different school they may let you stay at your original school. But if you leave the School District (which is usually one town/city or a few smaller towns joined together) you need to change school. Like I said that is how it works in my area. America is huge and depending where you are they may have different rules on moving out of the school area.

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BendingSpoons · 02/03/2022 22:26

What happens in the US if you move? Is your child forced to move high school even if you don't move that far? Or can they stay once they have started, assuming it is commutable.

lljkk · 02/03/2022 21:54

I grew up in USA & my "public" school system wasn't how OP describes, actually. Not in 70s-80s. I went to school across the city a few times. There was an application system etc.

Anyway, English system is ok.

Where I live in England, most people just send their kids to local schools & don't have angst about it or consider schools further away. Not because our schools are good (they aren't) but because the parents aren't aspirational. There's a lot of horror when you hint the child could travel 6 miles to a school with better reputation "I want to keep them close!" I hear a lot.

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 02/03/2022 21:20

@zolla like everything in life it benefits the richer families in general. But not always. The town I live in has one High School. Everyone in town goes to it. It's actually a Private School, but the town pays the tuition to send all the kids there instead of funding their own High School. So the poorer families in town do get the same excellent education as the richer families. That being said, while there are lower income families here its not a large amount of them because it is mostly more expensive to live here. Also this set up is pretty unusual. Most places just fund their own schools, so richer towns have better funded schools then poorer towns. Cities can be different though too, I work in a city and it has 2 high schools. Both are equally funded and are very good schools. They split the city so that each school has kids from richer, average and poorer parts of the city. In that case money doesnt matter (unless you send your child Private of course), they all get the same level of education in the whole city. One thing I did hear about in regards to the High School in my town (the private one that 6 towns pay the tuition to go to), there are families that live in other towns (outside those 6) that will rent a small flat near the school so they can send their child there without paying the tuition. I honestly have no idea what the tuition is to go there (I suppose I could look it up) but I would think that it would be less then 4 years of rent but maybe not. But to be able to have a home in another town, and rent a flat in our town you have to obviously be a "richer family". I will add I think as long as they are paying the rent on the place they dont even have to prove they actually LIVE there to be able to register for the school. I dont think this happens a lot, but I've certainly heard about it happening. So, money does not always make a difference (like in the city I work in), but of course in general it does if a place does not split the kids equally among rich, average and lower incomes. But in smaller places it makes a huge difference. Rich town, better schools. Poor town, most likely not as good schools (dont want to say that is true for ALL poorer places, there are always exceptions of course). Looking back this is very rambling response but hope you understand what I'm getting at lol

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Darbs76 · 02/03/2022 21:08

That system wouldn’t have suited me as I wouldn’t want my kids to go to the local school. That said I’d have moved if that was the system. Where I grew up in north wales the town has 3 schools and you pretty much go to the one closest, and all feed into the same secondary. Where I am in South London - Surrey boroughs there’s so much pressure for places. Mine got a place in one of the best secondaries in the area as they went to a feeder primary (got rid of the feeders now). I knew that and picked the primary school intentionally as I knew I intended to move out of area. So once one child got into the primary (across the road to where we lived) I knew I had secondaries sorted for him and his sister who was under 1 then. They are 14 & 17 now and the schools been fantastic. They wouldn’t have got the same education in the local secondary.

Zolla · 02/03/2022 20:54

I like the idea of the US/Scottish system but I feel it must surely benefit richer families? I’m not rich but I’m comfortable. We moved a year or so ago purposefully to put ourselves in good school catchments. Primary & secondary. We live in a reasonably affluent area, albeit in Yorkshire so not that posh 😂 Lots of my friends did similar in their kids younger years to place themselves in good catchments. Poorer families surely won’t necessarily have that choice..

To be fair, in my town pretty much everyone just goes to catchment schools. There isn’t that much choice, there isn’t that many schools. A lot of posters on here are in big cities where the population density is far higher. It’s low here, schools are full but there isn’t the intense competition you read about.

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 02/03/2022 20:41

@GiantSpider I can only speak on the area I am in on that topic. Part of it would depend on where you live. If you live in a small town with only one Elementary, Middle and/or High School and your child is being bullied you really dont have a choice unless you find a Private School, Home School or go VLACS (online school). If your child is being bullied though I would hope the school would deal with this situation, but I realize that is not always going to happen sadly. If you are in a bigger town/city that has more then one Elementary, Middle and/or High School you probably have more options. I work in a Middle School (grade 6-8, same as Year 7-9) , it is one of 3 Middle Schools in the city. We have some kids there on what we call "waiver". They live in the area of another Middle School but received permission to attend ours instead. All Elementary and Middle schools in the city have kids there on "waivers" (for lots of different reasons, not just bullying). Not everyone who applies for a waiver will get one, but if you have a very good reason it is usually given. Now the city has two High Schools (grade 9-12, same as Year 10-13) but waivers are not allowed at that level, so I guess you would move, go Private, homeschool or VLACS if being bullied and it not being dealt with. I live in a town that is smaller then the city I work in. My town has 2 Middle Schools but I really have no idea if they allow waivers (my son had no issues in his school so I never had to look into it). The town only has one High School though. And the school takes in kids from 6 different towns. It's a bit different then your average American High School though in that its actually a Private School. The 6 towns that send their kids there pay the tuition for their kids to go there instead of having their own High School (it also has kids there from other towns outside those 6 whose parents pay the tuition for them to go there). Being that it's a Private School it is a lot stricter then your average Public High School and is able to kick out kids who are behaving really badly (Public schools can not do that so easily here). I'm not going to pretend there is no bullying there, of course there is like everywhere but it just feels like it is dealt with better there.

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OhCrumbsWhereNow · 02/03/2022 20:39

Yes I like our system.

Our 'local' school... still 40 minutes away... is 'needs improvement' and not one I would choose for my child.

Our system allowed me to sit DD for 'scholarships' in her specialist area at around 6 schools and then select our top choice from the scholarships as the school we wanted for her. It's not local to us, but probably the best school for her in the SE of England.

If she'd gone to the local option, they don't even offer a GCSE in the subject.

It comes down to what you prioritise though - local friends, staying with primary friends, distance etc were not my top interests for DD. For another family those might well be the most important. Horses for courses.

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 02/03/2022 20:22

I'm not sure whether people will see this as a plus or negative for our Catchment system... 29/31 of the pupils in DDs Yr6 class are going to the same Secondary. Then one is going Private, and the other has moved several miles away and will go to school where he lives now.

Having gone to Secondary knowing no one (London), this does seem really positive for DD and I'm sure will make the transition easier.

GiantSpider · 02/03/2022 20:17

Yes - I really like it (although it does depend on the area, as other posters have said). There is a choice of schools and for example some are single sex, some are mixed sex, some are more academic while others put more of an emphasis on nurturing / pastoral care, some are really sporty, one is Catholic etc. It's true that you may not get your first choice, but many people do (not all).

OP, under your system, what happens if a child is unhappy or being bullied? Is there any possibility of moving schools?

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 02/03/2022 20:11

@RancidOldHag they are usually in the Fall (that is when Football Season starts). High Schools do them and I'm pretty sure it's a thing for Colleges and Universities too (or at least some of them). I think the College/University ones are more about the big Football Game (dont think they have dances, but I could be wrong) and probably a bigger deal for Alumni returning. I only really know about High School ones though. The Homecoming King, Queen and Court is basically "a popularity contest". The kids vote for who they want to win. So King and Queen are usually the most popular boy and girl at school and the Court are the runner ups. What do they do? Well, they wear a sash and a crown and know they are very popular LOL. Some places have a parade for Homecoming and they would ride a float and wave at people. It's all pretty silly really but its American Tradition at its finest LOL

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RancidOldHag · 02/03/2022 19:51

Thank you!,

So they be any time of year that the school chooses?

Or is it colleges/universities rather than schools? Or both?

What does a Homecoming Queen actually do?

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 02/03/2022 19:43

@RancidOldHag Homecoming usually encompasses a big Football Game, Voting in Homecoming King, Queen and Court, a Dance. It is called "homecoming" because like mentioned by @TeenPlusCat Alumni of the school (former students) come back "home" to watch the game. So its like a big reunion. But how big of a deal it is depends a lot on where you are. I'm in the Northeast of the country and its not as huge a thing here as it is in South. We still have the football game, the "royal court", the dance; but I'm not sure how popular it is for former students to return. I've never actually gone to one of my High Schools homecomings after I left. My oldest son did go to one of his but that is because he was in the Marching Band (who play in the stands during the game and then perform on the field at half time) and he wanted to visit other band members who were still in school.

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RancidOldHag · 02/03/2022 19:33

Really numpty question, but what is 'homecoming'?

(Vague memories of 'Daydream Believer' and never quite knew what it was)

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 02/03/2022 19:22

@TeenPlusCat

SATS or ACT (some places do one or the other and some do both) most Colleges (which is the same as a University, just smaller but not "less prestigious") and Universities want you to include your SAT or ACT score in your application. It is a multiple choice test on Maths and English (not sure if ACT has more subjects, my area of the country does SATs). That is not the only thing they go by though. You need to submit your transcript of your grades while in High School. You answer an Essay question(s) on the application. You get Letters of Recommendation from teachers. Obviously there are schools that are much harder to get into then others. I dont think all schools in America follow the same curriculum, but assume there are obviously similarities (especially when it comes to Maths). As for special tests for Law and Medicine I'm not sure for Pre-Law and Pre-Med but once you get through the first 4 years of that I'm sure there are tests to get into Law School and Med School.

Community Colleges
These are 2 year schools (regular college and university is 4 years). You get what is called an Associates Degree when you graduate from these. They are easier to get into and much cheaper (some states if you are a resident of that state for a certain amount of time prior you can go for free). Community Colleges also tend to have a lot of "older students", people who have decided to go back to school. Some use it as a stepping stone to a 4 Year College (get the first two years, then transfer) some just stop with the Associates Degree.

Homecoming
A lot of this depends where you are. They tend to be a much bigger deal in the Southern States (where football is also a much bigger deal). But yes Alumni (former students) coming to the Homecoming Football Game is a thing. There is also usually Homecoming Dance. I dont know of Alumni going to that, that is usually just for current students and their dates.

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TeenPlusCat · 02/03/2022 18:55

user1471 Do you think it would be better if there were 'forced' mixing of religions at high school, even if people had to travel more? To me no doubt very naively, it seems as if there might be more trust / communication if the younger generations got to know each other and become friends.

TeenPlusCat · 02/03/2022 18:52

I've more questions whilst you're here Smile

SATs for entry to university.
They are basically gigantic multiple-choice tests on a wide range of subjects, which you can retake to get a higher score, and the score plus personal statement is what gets you in? So is there one curriculum everyone follows throughout the country so everyone takes the same test?

But then there are additional special tests for law (Legally Blonde coming into play now) and 'pre-med' and things? These are subject specific and still multiple choice or are they essays?

You have 'community colleges' which are local universities, but then bigger more prestigious ones that you can go to direct if you do well enough?

I get the impression that for 'Homecoming' a lot of ex pupils also go along to the match?

user1471464218 · 02/03/2022 18:47

Northern Ireland and I like our system. We have tests in p7 (last year of primary, aged 10/11) and kids then transfer to grammar or non-selective. I think this is good for social mobility, and although it definitely doesn't cancel out the effects of a chaotic home life, i think it does help because it's fairly normal to go to a grammar school. There are issues with over-subscription in some parts of the country like in certain areas an A doesn't guarantee you'll get in to grammar but in other places you can walk in with a B. And our school system is still basically segregated by religious denomination- anyone can, and does, go but I'm my opinion they're not always welcome. Distance is rarely a criteria in school admissions. People just travel to the school of the type they want (grammar, non selective, Catholic, protestant....)

One region of Northern Ireland selects for grammar at age 14- everyone transfers to junior high for 3 yrs then on to either senior high or grammar. I've no experience of this.

YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer · 02/03/2022 18:39

@TeenPlusCat

Oh OK, things I notice all high schools have:
  • PA systems
  • lockers in all the wide, spacious hallways
  • having to 'pass' PE to graduate (as you happened to mention it)
  • big emphasis on sports
  • 'letter' jackets for sports players who 'letter' in the sport
  • 'homecoming'
  • 'homecoming' kings & queens
PA systems: Yes to PA Systems and morning announcements

Lockers: I would assume all schools have lockers. As for the wide spacious hallways it depends on the school. Of course for "filming purposes" they would need to be wide and spacious

Pass PE: I dont know the requirements of all States but the ones I do the answer is Yes. But the amount changes by State

Sports: HUGE emphasis on Sports (especially American Football)

Letter Jackets: Definitely a real thing

Homecoming: Yes, it's usually tied into a big Football game where you play your biggest rival and they do elect "Kings, Queens and Court"

So I guess the answer is Yes you have pretty much summed up American High School Life Smile

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