State school oxbridge bias

I still don't think you're responding to my actual point; state school parents generally have legitimate reason to complain when their child misses out on a place at Oxbridge, (assuming they had the grades etc, which they almost certainly will have done to apply), but private school parents do not have legitimate reason to complain when their child is "squeezed out". Because it is only just now becoming representative of the population, (about representative in terms of percentage of privately educated students vs state). Do you agree or not?

And of course I haven't sniped at private school children or parents. It would be weird if I did in the circumstances.

Oh my god. Of course you can say the education system in the U.K. is not fair - because it evidently is not. Nobody would disagree with that.

However.... you can hold that view without being snipey about the actual children and parents who who use independent schools though. As if they’re all one and the same. Can you see the difference?

I know you haven’t resorted to snipes. SoberSerena. But I’ve been on here a while and this happens every year in Jan / Feb when the London independent school 11 plus offers come out and the offers for a few grammars in certain boroughs as well. Someone comes on and asks, “Would you choose x independent or y independent; or x independent or y grammar.”

What they will inevitably get, is people who don’ t know anything about any of the schools or the process of getting into them, but just come on anyway to express they are annoyed that she’s even asking such a question at all because they personally, don’t believe in private education / grammar schools.

Well fair enough if you don’t believe in or have the means to use independents or grammars. But that’s not what the OP is asking and that ship has sailed! This OPs child has sat for various grammars and independents and has the offers so it is what it now is. She’s hardly going to put the child in the local comp after all that is she! Obviously, there is a very valid debate to be had about the independent schools and selective education per se, but anyone can start a thread about that at any time. Feel free!

I agree that spiteful language about Hugos or whatever isn't helpful though. But you cannot compare the two things.

Private school parent complaining about not getting a place due to unfairness in the system is as ridiculous as a white man complaining that a black woman got a job he wanted.

A state school parent complaining about unfairness in the system is completely justified.. it is unfair? That's why people pay for private.

You can deflect all you like, but that's my point. You haven't responded despite pages of conversation with me. I'm not sure how to make it any clearer really

SoberSerena - acknowledging historical unfairness in the system is one thing. Nobody denies that hmm. Repeatedly stereotyping current independent school students as ridiculous characters such as Boris Johnson, JRM or ‘Hugos’ or shit that can be thrown on a wall until some of it sticks (all this have been said on this thread) is quite something else. The discussion goes nowhere when all people want go do is throw borish (and at times spiteful) insults around. It’s just not helpful.

Couldn't agree more.

Those people you mention with children at private schools I mean

And again, I've never heard this. You mentioned that they were complaining about it ("my dc has been squeezed out..."). I didn't bring them up before you accuse me of making things up to have an argument with myself

I think that the state school parents actually have a point about unfairness in the system though. While private school parents don't. At best things are just being made fair and representative now. It is completely unreasonable for those people you mention to complain at all, while I can see the state parents' point. Do you not?

SoberSerena - acknowledging historical unfairness in the system is one thing. Nobody denies that . Repeatedly stereotyping current independent school students as ridiculous characters such as Boris Johnson, JRM or ‘Hugos’ or shit that can be thrown on a wall until some of it sticks (all this have been said on this thread) is quite something else. The discussion goes nowhere when all people want go do is throw borish (and at times spiteful) insults around. It’s just not helpful.

Having said that, a few people on the HE threads this year and last whose DC were rejected did have a bit of a rant when it was all still raw about “oh it’s all full of toffs from private schools” or “my DC has been squeezed out due to WP.” or whatever. I’m saying I can understand both these reactions, even though I don’t agree and anyway, you know none of them truly believe what they’re saying anyway, because the situation is obviously far more nuanced than that! The Oxbridge threads are generally very supportive in the whole and people’s DC are applying all types school - inc overseas. It’s a stressful process for anyone and and can take its toll - that’s all I’m saying.

And of course there is a massive amount of random luck as to what goes in in the interviews. That’s not naive. That’s fact.

I think the process at Oxford is more standardised, so I can’t comment on that.

But at Cambridge, different colleges have different very application requirements. For DD’s subject, some wanted two essays, some one, some none. Some had two interviews, some had one. Some sent reading material days before the interviews, some bourse before, others used no material. Some colleges have ‘general interviews’ (more about your PS etc); others do not. It seems to me very random and the same student could apply to two colleges on the same day and probably get in to one and not the other. I don’t know why they don’t just standardise the requirements and the actual process across the colleges. That would be a start.

You said it was natural to seek to blame someone else. So state school parents might blame the unfairness in the system (justified), and private school parents might blame the unfairness in the system (due to the levelling up which has just happened so that now it is about representative of the population. This has only happened in the past year or so and it had only made it so that it represents the population, which it's hard to argue with...so not justifiable). They are completely different things. Saying "oh we mustn't blame others" is all very well, but the difference between someone from a comp, where for many years they have not been given a fair crack at Oxbridge, so the teachers are less knowledgeable about applying for Oxbridge or are reluctant to encourage students to apply there as they may feel there is no chance etc, and a student from a private school where they now are getting only a fair crack at Oxbridge instead of an unfair advantage is glaringly obvious.

I said its human nature to be disappointed if your child has worked hard and doesn’t get into their goal. Call it “whinging” if you will. The previous poster called it whinging and I was responding to that. We are all allowed to have a whinge on occasions! My point was - before pointing the fingers at “others” - (whether this be applicants from comprehensive schools, independent schools, grammar schools, those with contextual flags, overseas students you name it) - it’s probably best to get constructive and honest feedback from the actual college you applied to in the given year. The rest is out if your control and you will never know who you were up against or their personalities / school / personal / family circumstances.

@m0ch1

Who is saying that though, SiberSetena?

It’s almost as if people want to believe independent school parents are all thinking that, so they can keep having an argument with themselves!

For my part, I’m all for WP. I went to a state school myself. So did my husband. When DD didn’t get in first time round, I didn’t think, “oh my god it’s because of WP - Outrage!” She and I both knew that there were just probably stronger candidates applying to that college in that cycle. But she was at least pooled so we took that as a positive. Also, there is a large element of luck as to what comes up in the interviews. I would say this is probably far more significant than what school you went to.

You are very naive...

I mean, clearly no sane person would say it in exactly the way I did; I was being hyperbolic for comedic effect and to make my point that a state school parent complaining about not getting a place is completely different to a private school parent doing the same. I haven't seen it irl. You were the one who said it 🤷‍♀️

you did? In the post where you said that private school parents might whinge about not getting a place, but then so would state school parents. I was responding to you

Who is saying that though, SiberSetena?

It’s almost as if people want to believe independent school parents are all thinking that, so they can keep having an argument with themselves!

For my part, I’m all for WP. I went to a state school myself. So did my husband. When DD didn’t get in first time round, I didn’t think, “oh my god it’s because of WP - Outrage!” She and I both knew that there were just probably stronger candidates applying to that college in that cycle. But she was at least pooled so we took that as a positive. Also, there is a large element of luck as to what comes up in the interviews. I would say this is probably far more significant than what school you went to.

This school didn't even send anyone to any 6th forms, let alone any university. And nobody to Oxbridge ever, obviously.

You can think private schools are unethical, but essentially all schools are private. They just depend on the prices of the surrounding housing, rather than actually handing money over.

I'm not against private school. I can hardly be since I went to two of them! But I also agree it is unfair. Children educated at private schools, generally, have an advantage in life. That is really difficult to argue with (with a straight face).

And I really do draw the line at people complaining that there is now bias against them because Oxbridge are only now, in the 2020s, beginning to get to a point where their intake is representative of the country in terms of percentage from state vs percentage from private. Seriously? That really is laughable. "Oh no, now we have about the same percentage of students coming from state as the percentage of students who attend state school. The AUDACITY of those state school pampered kids" . It's like a bad joke

Well that’s up to you.

If you think that, Erinyes, then you have not had the misfortune of living somewhere where the local comp was so bad that it was the subject of a TV documentary and subsequently closed. I lived in the next street from it and everyone in my street was allocated that school. My grandparents’ money was used for me to go private.

“so, if you get out what you put in, why aren't their children gaining the ultimate prize, after all that money and effort?”

Well yes, but any student applying for Oxbridge will have had to have put in extra “effort” over and above the A-level curriculum. They will all have worked super-hard to even be in a viable position to apply. You can’t blame anyone with all 9s and all A* and a fantastic reference and shi has worked hard in their PS and who would have done all manner if ‘super-curricular’ things, to feel at least a bit miffed if they get rejected. Anyone would!

When your child is 10/11 and you are choosing a senior school for your DC, I very much doubt parents are actually thinking about Oxbridge. Well, we certainly weren’t. The “ultimate prize” as you put it is not Oxbridge. The “ultimate prize” would be all 9s and A*. Oxbridge may not even offer the degree they want to do anyway, so how can you be thinking about that when your child is yet to discover their interests? There are loads of unis that are super-competitive. You just want them to get the best grades they can really, as an end in itself.

We looked at the GCSE results in the school and it was very local to us and we could afford it so that was it. Oxbridge was never on our or DD’s radar. None of us know anyone who went there. Then she surprised herself with her GCSE results (she had always felt very average in comparison to her peers in the school). After this, she found her focus and started believing she could have a go for something like Cambridge. Some of her peers got in, but most didn’t - it’s very course-dependent. The previous two cycles have been more competitive than ever (less offers due to cancelled exams) so she figured it was worth another go after she was rejected first time. But, from our point, of view, we never paid school fees to “get her into Oxbridge.’ We gave her a chance to get into this school that is local to us and highly competitive entry at 11. She got in so we wanted to give her that opportunity because it was there. The school did nothing anyway. No PS feedback. I organised two mock interviews for her myself via an online search.

As far as I can see, the point of fee-paying schools, as viewed by parents, is giving their child the edge over his peers, on the logic that they paid money, they bought in the tutoring, they put in the effort, they facilitated the entrance exams -- so, if you get out what you put in, why aren't their children gaining the ultimate prize, after all that money and effort?

It's insecurity, class anxiety, and a terrible creeping fear that their children, if not hothoused, might turn out to be distinctly average.

@m0ch1 I agree with you. I've never heard any parent complain of this at my daughter's independent school either. I would also agree that a suite of A's is a guarantee of nothing, and it never was. 2 of my brothers had 4 A's a A level, in the same subjects. Both applied to Oxbridge. One got in only.

The facts demonstrate that for the last 2 decades more than half of Oxbridge places went to state school applicants, this increased in the last 2 years. This suggests independent schools aren't the advantage people may think they are...? I have no evidence to back up this hypothesis but I wonder if this trend could be interpreted as indicating a reduction in independent schools being truly selective and conversely an increase in state schools (grammars and sixth forms) being selective.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn00616/

I also do not believe an independent school is capable of making a brilliant student (that is not to say some parents might feel they are ''buying'' a certain outcome..). It's inarguable private schools have greater resources and capacity to nurture talent, expand beyond the curriculum etc however you cannot make a fish fly. Nor can endless tutoring. Not everyone is destined for ''academic'' excellence and most importantly, not everyone wants it. If money to pay the fees is the only selection criteria then yes, it's much like paying for business class on a place - you get a more comfortable seat, more looked after, a better meal, more space but you sill end up in the same place as everyone sitting in the back of the plane.

SoberSerena - I think you are misinterpreting me. I didn’t go to an independent school (far from it)! nor Oxbridge and neither did my husband. But we are totally irrelevant because things have obviously changed a lot since the 80s. For the better! It wouldn’t have occurred to me to apply to Oxbridge. I was the first in my family to get to university at all. Same with my husband.

My point was, we all have our anecdotes and it’s too easy to come on here and talk about things you have supposedly “heard” and present it as fact. Eg. “I’ve heard through a friend if a neighbour that mums in a private school are all whinging” - as if this somehow has a bearing on everyone who uses independent schools!

I came on to say that we do have kids in three different independent schools and I personally, have heard nobody whinging whstsoever Yes, I think Oxbridge success numbers have been lower in recent years but, as I said, if I’ve heard disappointed parents or teachers “blame” anything for that, it’s the impact of Covid.

As I said, people will always moan a bit if they or their kids don’t get an offer somewhere that they should, on paper, have received. We are all human! It’s easy to “other” unknown
people and perhaps even temporarily “blame” them in the midst of disappointment, but the best thing is to get feedback from the individual college you applied to.

As to whether WP initiatives in recent years will have a significant effect on offers to those applying from the private sector - who knows? Only time will tell and so far, restricted offers due to Covid have meant it’s impossible to discern.

My experience of a DD who successfully applied to Cambridge this year (after being rejected on her first attempt) is that the school told them all to consider it as a long shot and that a raft of 9s and A*s are a guarantee if nothing. I think this was the best advice really.

Because @SoberSerena they'll
Say 'oh we chose the school because it's the right environment/ is more diverse/...' etc.
It's literally never bc it gives their children an unfair leg up. And to be clear it's not that that I object to - it's the concern that having made that choice there's an accusation they could be discriminated against.
You have to laugh...