Page 9 | Why on earth would anyone reject SPGS??

newsibling123 · 2022-02-25T08:43:00+00:00

I've been reading through many threads with mums wondering between SPGS and G&L. While G&L is a great school, why on Earth would there be a conflict in choosing SPGS, they applied in the first place, its not like they got cold called by the school and their DD offered a place! If we applied to SPGS, we'd put G&L as back up, but if we had two offers there's no question we'd choose SPGS. The only way I can imagine conflict is if G&L offered a scholarship, or DD really didn't want to go SPGS, even then we would try and show her what a brilliant opportunity it was. I know one chooses the best school for the DC, etc etc, but I can't imagine any scenario, all things being equal, how G&L would be 'better'. If DD was heavily tutored and parent was worried she'd struggle at SPGS now they have offer in hand, then G&L doesn't come to mind as an alternative to that! One of the less intense GDST schools or somewhere with broader selection, less high academic like Portland or More House maybe? Don't mean to offend anyone here, choosing school is tough, but I just don't get this at all...It's like getting a place at Oxford and choosing Durham

pantjog · 26/02/2022 11:27

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Original poster

newsibling123 · 26/02/2022 10:59

@runningpram

Standards at Oxford are hugely better than at Durham. Oxford teaches harder courses, provides more hours/smaller groups of teaching/marking, leads to very markedly higher graduate earnings, gives a far higher chance of 1st class honours/of funded postgraduate study. And Oxford is certainly harder to get in - the very weakest students at Oxford [possibly excluding the odd choral scholar, boat race ringer, etc] would be well above average at Durham.

Standards at these two schools are near as damnit identical.
Before grade inflation went bonkers, the two had almost identical proportions of A* proportions (52% vs 46%) - so the top 46% at G&L were objectively stronger than the bottom 48% at SPGS.

It's trivially easy to imagine geographical, cultural, or a whole host of other considerations leading a parent to prefer G&L to SPGS.

Some of this is true but some of it is utter rubbish.
I've worked and studied alongside many grads of both universities.
Yes - Oxford in many subjects ( probably not all) has undoubtedly better teaching and the courses are more intense.
But in terms of the level of student, the top 50% at Durham would cope perfectly well at Oxford. A few might have turned down Oxford, most have probably been rejected. But that rejection is very often down to something subjective or something that didn't quite work out on the day.
For the genius or really outstanding mind Oxbridge is probably the right place. However for very bright but not utterly outstanding students, there is very little difference between the intelligence levels of students at Oxbridge and at Durham. In fact in terms of career outcomes, in my (admittedly anecdotal!) experience, the Durham students tend to do better and earn more and by and large have better people skills.

I've already accepted there are legitimate reasons to reject SPGS for G&L, my only argument was when ALL THINGS ARE EQUAL, me (I) would choose SPGS every time.

in 2021 SPGS sent 41 girls to Oxbridge, this is a higher number even as a proportion when compared to G&L, so they simply aren't identical for leaver outcome. G&L leavers are a roll call of the best universities in the world, but its not as strong as SPGS.

SO you have a very clever girl, who has no preference, doesn't want an extensive IB choice, etc, its a like for like choice. I truly believe ( and of course this is based on my anecdotal, heavily influenced by certain family members , my own research, etc) a bright child is better off in SPGS.

Essentially I was poking fun when I said SPGS was Oxbridge and G&L was Durham , I'm sure you know Durham is the quintessential Oxbridge reject Uni. I was using it as an illustration of how I thought it was strange to pick G&L over SPGS AFTER applying for both. I know this was wrong, and I'm sorry I wrote it.

I'll sign off this thread now, I 'm sorry if I upset parents, and I accept I do place SPGS on a very high pedestal and we can argue forever about the rights and wrongs for that. I'm not going to budge on that. Lots of students struggle at university, they should have never really gone there, it's the same with SPGS, its more a case of wrong child at the school, rather than a failure of the school. Which after reading through this thread, I realize answers my question, the school is attractive for its results, but only suits a certain girl, and this realization might be after applying

Lastly for posters saying the children must be under so much pressure, yes that's true, but we try and shield her from our own wants and hang-ups, remember at least in our family, they are growing up with parents who have gone through this themselves with trying to get top marks in exams, degrees and postgraduate degrees and pushed themselves in careers and everything they do. We are well aware the damage of over ambition can have, my parents had it for me.

They have examples in their family who have become surgeon doctors, QC barristers and they know it's very hard work that gets them there, and it's not for everyone, and it's OK if its not for them, I tell my DD I love her every day and I always will. My nightmare would be for my DD at SPGS, unhappy and struggling just to please mum and dad, I'd never forgive myself.

OP posts:

ConfusedaboutSchool · 26/02/2022 10:35

@Flamingpantoufles

I'm baffled by your bafflement, OP. There are so many reasons why people might apply but not take up an offer at the school. Anecdotally, we applied because DD was encouraged to and the application process gave us some insight into a school we knew little about. We were very impressed by it and it's obviously an excellent school but there are many excellent schools out there and, in the end, DD chose another very academic but, we (and, more importantly, she) felt, more down-to-earth school, which she loves. For me, the fact that people get so carried away with the prestige of SPGS was quite a turn-off. There is very little difference in terms of outcome when it comes to choosing one very good school over another so for us is came down to a combination of child's preference, atmosphere, distance, cohort, fees etc.

@newsibling123 The only reason this would seem odd to you is if the main (or even only) criteria you use to pick a school is its league table ranking.

The difference in performance between all the top schools is tiny and largely down to selection rather than teaching. At an individual level it makes no difference to outcomes or the quality of ones education etc.

Therefore, for most parents who look at things holistically, there will be a wide range of other factors that influence which school might be 1st choice-- pastural care, ethos, environment, ability to do the IB, co-ed vs single sex, etc etc

Given that St Paul's Girls School has a very mixed reputation regarding the well-being of the girls / the attitudes of the parents, its surprising you find all of this so surprising really.

runningpram · 26/02/2022 09:45

Standards at Oxford are hugely better than at Durham. Oxford teaches harder courses, provides more hours/smaller groups of teaching/marking, leads to very markedly higher graduate earnings, gives a far higher chance of 1st class honours/of funded postgraduate study. And Oxford is certainly harder to get in - the very weakest students at Oxford [possibly excluding the odd choral scholar, boat race ringer, etc] would be well above average at Durham.

Standards at these two schools are near as damnit identical.
Before grade inflation went bonkers, the two had almost identical proportions of A* proportions (52% vs 46%) - so the top 46% at G&L were objectively stronger than the bottom 48% at SPGS.

It's trivially easy to imagine geographical, cultural, or a whole host of other considerations leading a parent to prefer G&L to SPGS.

Some of this is true but some of it is utter rubbish.
I've worked and studied alongside many grads of both universities.
Yes - Oxford in many subjects ( probably not all) has undoubtedly better teaching and the courses are more intense.
But in terms of the level of student, the top 50% at Durham would cope perfectly well at Oxford. A few might have turned down Oxford, most have probably been rejected. But that rejection is very often down to something subjective or something that didn't quite work out on the day.
For the genius or really outstanding mind Oxbridge is probably the right place. However for very bright but not utterly outstanding students, there is very little difference between the intelligence levels of students at Oxbridge and at Durham. In fact in terms of career outcomes, in my (admittedly anecdotal!) experience, the Durham students tend to do better and earn more and by and large have better people skills.

Trolleedollee · 26/02/2022 09:16

OP I really worry about your post. The one thing lacking from your comments is the holistic understanding of the child. Just because a child gets and offer from a school and you can afford the fees doesn’t make it the right school for your child. Perhaps you didn’t like the experience during the admissions process, perhaps your child didn’t get a good feel, perhaps you feel that on reflection the ultra competitive environment of a school entirely full of high achieving girls isn’t for your daughter, perhaps you realise your daughter wouldn’t be at the top of the year and even though she’s clearly very smart her mental health and resilience would be better in a school where she might be closer to the top of the year.

I’ve never had interest in St Pauls for all those reasons. Having it on the CV is of zero interest to me and I feel the same way about NLCS which is probably a close competitor. The academics can’t be disrupted but what do some of these schools do to their girls mentally to get them

Goawayangryman · 26/02/2022 08:51

I cannot understand the absolute hype and hysteria over issues like this, nor the lack of critical thinking commonly applied.

All these schools principally get fantastic results because they are super, super selective. The difference in grades attained by their students would probably not be statistically significant when controlling for other variables known to affect academic attainment.

Pick a school based on best fit for your child's personality. Although how you establish that I do not know really. Certainly not from hearsay, self-selected reviews, and tours/ open days.

Hosum · 26/02/2022 08:50

We turned down SPGS - went for it partly out of curiosity if dd would get in. During lockdown so not much chance to visit/see it in operation. Dd already a type to trend to worry so decided it wasn't for her and I'd rather she was in a more mixed cohort with emphasis on the wider experience than academics.

mdh2020 · 26/02/2022 08:41

We have a local school on a par with SPGS and both my DD and DiL rejected it. In fact my DiL said she would run away from home if she was sent there. A school has to suit the child. We rejected two other schools in favour of UCS for our son and it was absolutely the right decision.

Utility · 26/02/2022 08:10

NB. The post above is specifically addressing the OP's original post.
@Zodlebud 's points above are incredibly relevant.

Utility · 26/02/2022 07:55

@newsibling123
A quick Google search will show you the academic performance of the two schools at the most recent sitting of public examinations (2019). Attached.
While I agree that St. Paul's is always top, the differences between the two are very small and not really relevant on an individual level.
In which case: yes, sports, drama, other extracurricular activities, and considerations such as pastoral care and atmosphere become all-important in the correct choice for your child.
Hence why some choose Godolphin over St. Paul's.

Zodlebud · 26/02/2022 07:42

It’s a very sad state of affairs OP when you declare a school “the best” based on a) exam results, b) Number of Oxbridge places and c) prestige - when you haven’t even been to see it.

The school only selects the very brightest girls. Those who go onto Oxbridge probably would have gone there if they had gone to any other school as well. Just because they are all huddled together under one roof doesn’t make it a better school. In fact, I am more in awe of those schools who can turn a Grade B student into a Grade A one and turn an aspirational Oxbridge place into reality as opposed to it just been taken as a given.

There are lots of schools that do this very successfully and IMO give you far better value for money as a result.

In fact, it would be interesting to have a post on schools I wish parents would look at and evaluate property for what they offer that aren’t topping the league tables.

I actually really like SPGS so not bashing it at all. We turned down a place for DD1 at one of the top north London day schools (not far behind SPGS for results) in favour of one people see as a “backup” school. The decision was obvious as we got to know the schools more but not something we could have known based on open days. People thought we were mad. Turns out it was the best decision we ever made.

numberthirtytwowindsorgardens · 26/02/2022 07:28

the chilled vibe of Cambridge

😂😂😂

Original poster

newsibling123 · 26/02/2022 00:44

@saraclara

I don't pressure my DD, and I wrote Oxbridge, - personally I'd love my DD to attend Newnham college, Cambridge where my Aunt went, much prefer the chilled vibe of Cambridge to Oxford any day!

True these are very academic schools , but I wouldn't dream of sending my daughter to even try for the school unless her private primary school supported her and more importantly I felt she was bright enough and could handle the pressure of a school with very clever girls.

It's a tightrope as you want your girls to be all they can be, ( and I believe all girls environment is needed for that) but you don't want to put too much pressure on them.

Her happiness is above all and I mean that.

OP posts:

saraclara · 26/02/2022 00:04

@Volterra

This thread is like a foreign language to a fair few of us. The pressure some of these DC appear to be under feels a bit mind blowing from the outside.

Yep. I had to Google those initials. And I really feel for these kids who are pressurised to the point that the most academic school in the country, and Oxford is the only acceptable academic route. I notice that Cambridge doesn't even get a look in.

Original poster

newsibling123 · 25/02/2022 23:45

@Utility

I haven't got DC at either school so I wouldn't know that.

I'll be the first to put my hands up to say I'm caught up with the hype around the school, and I started the thread because the reasons put forward for dithering between the two schools in the threads were things like who has the best sports, which I just didn't understand, sport facilities aren't what comes to mind why one would send their DD to academic powerhouse like these schools. I accept that's my own prejudice.

I do understand as some have posted that SPGS is their second choice to G&L and only applied as back up to G&L. But reading the threads, it does seem the OP's see each school as roughly equal and can't decide and asking for MN advice pros and cons of each school.

I think some posters are just reading the headline of the thread and not my point. Lots of legit reasons to switch from SPGS to G&L, but as my OP said, "all things being equal," I don't understand why SPGS doesn't win.

OP posts:

Volterra · 25/02/2022 23:23

This thread is like a foreign language to a fair few of us. The pressure some of these DC appear to be under feels a bit mind blowing from the outside.

sadpapercourtesan · 25/02/2022 23:10

[quote newsibling123]@opoponax

That's why I said bog standard History or Politics. I know certain subjects have more gravitas at certain institutions.

I completely agree about fit, and see it as so fundamental it goes without saying. My DD would have to love it , or how else could it possibly work? In my OP I said I'd let my DD pick G&L over SPGS if my DD really wanted this.[/quote]
Are History and Politics considered "bog standard" then?

This thread is utterly mystifying to me.

Cherryblossoms85 · 25/02/2022 23:08

Wow. Another world. Bit terrifying really.

Utility · 25/02/2022 22:54

An extraordinary thread. It is almost as if it were started by a current pupil.
Everyone with children at St. Paul's and Godolphin know of girls who have chosen the latter over the former for a multitude of reasons, which are discussed in detail on Mumsnet year after year.
Why not read the threads in question.

BuanoKubiamVej · 25/02/2022 21:53

Because each child has 2 parents, and each child by the age of 10/11 may well have developed rational opinions of their own. It's entirely possible that one or other of the parents or the child themselves were keen on SPGS but one or more of the other two have doubts but the child might as well sit the exam and see what happens but no decisions are being made till the offers are in cos there's no point handwringing about which school is a better fit when you don't even know which schools are even possible yet.

Bugbeds · 25/02/2022 20:26

Would still rather my DC went to the comp not so far away from SPGS — and both of them are at Oxbridge FWIW.

Original poster

newsibling123 · 25/02/2022 20:21

@opoponax

That's why I said bog standard History or Politics. I know certain subjects have more gravitas at certain institutions.

I completely agree about fit, and see it as so fundamental it goes without saying. My DD would have to love it , or how else could it possibly work? In my OP I said I'd let my DD pick G&L over SPGS if my DD really wanted this.

OP posts:

Original poster

newsibling123 · 25/02/2022 19:32

[quote hollibobs22]@newsibling123- will you be disappointed in your daughter if she doesn't get into St Pauls. Will you feel she's failed? What happens if she does get in but then decides she doesn't want to go to University?

Have you actually looked round the school?

I'm not totally sure this isn't a wind up thread?[/quote]
I'd be disappointed, not devastated, I certainly won't make her feel like she's failed, and ultimately you can't push water uphill, if she didn't want to go to university. As long as she was doing 'something' positive instead.

I intend to start tours closer to the time, DD is little.

If we were in a position where we were applying of course she would have toured the school, had long chats with DD, with our prep, etc. IF she didn't have a hope in hell or seemed at complete odds with the school, of course I wouldn't push to apply. Still a bit early (bright 7+, so on the path so to speak)

I don't know why looking at SPGS place at the top of league tables and high Oxbridge entry making it a highly desirable school for my DD makes me 'a wind up'. As I explained in another post, if we're shelling out over 25K a year, for us that's a huge huge amount of cash and we can only really justify it by sending her to the school with amazing results and rep.

OP posts:

opoponax · 25/02/2022 19:15

I agree that this might be a wind up thread. Just in case it's not though..., okay fair enough, Medicine is different. However, just in my DS's year group, I know 2 DC who have chosen LSE and UCL over Oxbridge places for Economics and one who chose Warwick over Cambridge for Maths. There were a number of others who went to Oxbridge, which was great for them because it was right for them - but not for all academic high-achievers. In the kindest possible way, I would stop placing such high value on the ROI% on school fees and think more about the contribution that a particular school brings to the child as a whole, not least their own happiness and potential to grow in the widest sense of the word. The reach of this is much more than a set of exam results and whether they end up at Oxbridge or not! A few years ago a colleague's DS went to the top boy's school in the country and ended up not even getting an offer into a RG Uni. Why? Because the school was a very bad fit for him. She didn't listen to him when choosing the school and he resented her for it and would have done much better at the school he preferred a rung down. How do you know that your children will even want to go to Oxbridge? It is surely about their happiness and fulfilment at the end of the day, isn't it?

hollibobs22 · 25/02/2022 19:02

@newsibling123- will you be disappointed in your daughter if she doesn't get into St Pauls. Will you feel she's failed? What happens if she does get in but then decides she doesn't want to go to University?

Have you actually looked round the school?

I'm not totally sure this isn't a wind up thread?