Why on earth would anyone reject SPGS??

@Oldpalace123 you really can't imagine why a girl who knew that there was a high likelihood she'd go to the same local school as her siblings might want to prove to herself (and perhaps others) that she could get into the likes of SPGS and/or Tiffin, even if she and her parents probably already knew it wouldn't be affordable/practical for her to take up the place?

The comp wasn't in the vicinity of Tiffin, that's why they decided against Tiffin and it wasn't any of the ones you name. I know a teacher there and tbh it sounds like a challenging school that I wouldn't choose for my own dc. But if you have two other children there doing extremely well and it's at the end of your road and you can't really afford a private school then your view will be informed by that.

Just to upset everyone even further I have another friend who sent two dd to SPGS who regrets his decision, thinks it was a total waste of money and is always bemoaning what very ordinary career paths they're following. Which is not to criticise SPGS, I'm sure it's a fabulous school, but it's not the answer to all ills and many people will not go there and still thrive.

My DD goes to a school with 50% bursary take up, very down to Earth community feel despite being private, a world away from SPGS or Tiffin. I agree you send the girl to the best school for her, regardless of its ranking.

But I think it's BIZARRE that a family would have a DD who wanted to apply as a 'game' , pay Reg fees, go through the interview process then reject their places? That might not sound weird to you , but it does to me.

95%+ accept their offer of a place at SPGS, so you can understand its a little odd to go through all that as a 'game'. I can't imagine doing that with my DD.

Each to their own ...

Old palace If the DD in question went to a “standard comp” in the vicinity of Tiffin then the chances were it wasn’t a standard comp at all. Whether it was Coombe or one of the LBRUT comps they all achieve similar academic results in their top sets to private schools, particularly if you account for the degree of selectivity for SPGS, LEH and G&L which is so extreme that parents seem to perceive equally good private schools like the GDST and KGS etc. It is perfectly rational to consider your student will not suffer academically from that decision. These comps are heavily oversubscribed (by in some cases 1000 first preferences) and many parents apply to private schools as insurance whilst hoping they can use that money in other ways to support family life, without compromising academic chances. There are many first time buyers in these schools who would not have gone private if they could have got a place in a Coombe or Waldegrave.

Equally some parents chose private over state because of the wider opportunities they provide in sport and the arts. In that Tiffin feels particularly Spartan in comparison to both private and other state.

My DDs peers at the state comps did just as well in terms of uni entrance. They perhaps faced a few more challenges with crowd control and had to be be more self sufficient in getting deep into the syllabus (not necessarily a bad thing) but even at the private schools crowd control can be a challenge with some cohorts - and private schools are not necessarily as practised at responding.

As to state versus private outside the London bubble, perhaps look at some where like North Yorkshire where the private schools tend to be for those who either don’t want their child to be with children from all backgrounds or know they are going to need more support but there are state alternatives that are better performing particularly in toP sets. Actually those motivations still apply in terms of some private schools in West London though most have engaged in an academic arms race. Some private schools perform worse than their comprehensive neighbours - I don’t want to name names as they still are good schools who do a good job for their cohorts.

I don't think it sounds weird either @ForeverbyJudyBlume and it will have boosted her DD's confidence to know that she did get offers at those places even if, ultimately, they decided against sending her to them. Also, doing the prep for them will have been a good stretching exercise at a time when most primary school children weren't having the best schooling experience.

I don't know if I'd have made the same choice but actually if the journey to Tiffin was going to be very long and the fees at SPGS a stretch, there's probably a lot to be said for what they've opted for. She's clearly very bright and motivated and will probably thrive wherever she goes.

I don't think it sounds weird and sad at all, my friend is neither of those things.

Tiffin is miles away from them and very difficult to get to, the school she's chosen is at the end of their road, all her friends from primary school were going there, her siblings attended it and were doing very well indeed.

Her dd found old Tiffin and SPGS papers during lockdown, practised alone, asked if she could apply - her mum said yes and paid the application fees, thinking she probably wouldn't get in but if her dd wanted to try, why not? It was more of an academic game for her than desperately wanting to go to these particular schools, she had never set eyes on either of them when she applied (and afaik has never been inside either as this happened during lockdown).

Tiffin is miles away from them and very difficult to get to, the school she's chosen is at the end of their road, all her friends from primary school were going there and her siblings attended it and were doing very well indeed.

Everyone in the family felt the local school was the best choice. I explained to my friend that I did feel there were some advantages to the other schools, but also said her dd could move at sixth form if necessary and I fully understood it wasn't great to put the family to such financial stretch. My friend spoke to another friend of mine with a dd at SPGS who agreed hers sounded like a sensible choice. It was a dilemma but so far there are no regrets.

I know if my friend were to read this thread, she'd feel even more justified in her decision.

[quote MissHavershamReturns]@ForeverbyJudyBlume I think the reason it makes people angry is these private schools are so expensive and they have spent so much for what they believe is a wonderful leg up, they then don’t want to hear some think they aren’t worth it.

I completely get why your friend takes the view she does.[/quote]
That doesn't make sense for Tiffin though does it?

You understand why a mum would stop her daughter attending a brilliant grammar school, because there's a average comp down the road??

The woman sounds like an inverse snob, to the point she restricts the aspirations of her own daughter.

I don't understand what you mean, if her DD REALLY wanted to go? If my DD took it on herself to apply to two of the most competitive schools in London off her own bat, I'd take that as a sign she REALLY wanted to go, especially paying reg fees herself ( I assume)

Not sure what your trying to prove with this woman, other than she's sounds batshit crazy.

Can you make it to Cambridge without private school...er..most do. So not sure what your point is, it's an awful example to choose that's for sure.

@ForeverbyJudyBlume I think the reason it makes people angry is these private schools are so expensive and they have spent so much for what they believe is a wonderful leg up, they then don’t want to hear some think they aren’t worth it.

I completely get why your friend takes the view she does.

Are we to presume this child not only applied to SPGS by herself but also paid the application fee by herself?

Sorry if it sounds completely nuts, that's the way it is. She could JUST afford the fees but it would have been a squeeze, she didn't qualify (just) for a bursary.

The child applied to Tiffin and SPGS herself - if she had REALLY wanted to go to one or the other my friend would have let her but she was ambivalent.

I'm saying my friend was a refugee who arrived in the UK speaking very little English aged 15, went to a low-performing comp, still made it to Cambridge, she therefore is dubious about the added value private schools offer.

I may well not have made her choice and obviously you wouldn't either but I'm not sure why it makes you so angry.

She had to go to the local comp because all her siblings had gone? She thinks sending her DC to private would turn them out like BoJo??

This all sounds completely nuts, sorry.

And what has her refugee status got to do with anything ? Einstein was a refugee. Mo Farah was too, the multi millionaire Saatchi brothers also.

of course, you must know @ForeverbyJudyBlume. friend!

Sorry, I have no idea what this means?

For those saying my friend's daughter might have done "even better" at SPS, Tiffin, that was slightly my feeling and I advised her to give those schools serious thought (she thought all kids who went to them would turn out like Boris Johnson).

But my friend a) couldn't really afford the fees, b) had educated her other children at the local school and didn't want to single one out c) was a refugee who went to a comprehensive and ended up at Cambridge and is now a professor d) has political doubts that I fully understand about private schools e) thought the journey to Tiffin would be a stretch. She hadn't encouraged her dd to apply for the schools, the dd trained herself during lockdown when she found some past papers and asked to apply.

And when I say "doing fine" I don't know precisely how she's doing because tbh I don't track my friends' children's progress obsessively but I bet anything she comes out with all 9s, straight A*s and gets a place at Oxbridge with no problem because that's the kind of child she is. So I'm not sure how else she could "do better" in the thinking of the OP at least.

Also, as for the different ‘vibes’ in different schools, this is impossible to pinpoint really as it’s so subjective. But (without sounding too mad hopefully), what I would suggest, is just position yourself outside the schools your DC has been offered at 4pm. Sit in that Cafe Cino outside LU as they come out and you will definitely get the vibe! Park up and watch them come out of G&L or SPGS and think about where you can visualise your child fitting in for the next seven years.

Yes, I understand what you’re saying, Emily. Mine went to / are at G&L, SPS (boys) and LU between the four of them. Of course I’m speaking very generally, but I think these schools have far more similarities than differences. In my experience of these schools, children who feel academically pressured are very much in the minority. The schools simply don’t take pupils who wouldn’t cope in the environments. Sure, it feels very competitive getting into these schools at 11 plus (because it is), but if a school can choose from over 1000 kids (who were probably all among the most able at primary level) all to fill their 100 or so spaces, they don’t need to be taking children who won’t cope. Academically-speaking, once in the schools, it’s not that pressurised at all. They all find their niche. Yes, what you might call truly “gifted” children will emerge sooner or later, but they’re probably a handful in any year and they’re hardly going to be brilliant at everything. Most of the pupils just go with the flow and if they are occasionally outstanding at something - then bonus. But it’s not essential at all. The schools are not about comparing children against each other. They don’t even include grades in reports. In my experience, no news is good news (parent-wise) and it will be like this for the vast majority. They only get in touch if a child is not coping; or perhaps needs specialist support due to an SpLD.

The social side if things is a different matter and one you can never predict at any school. Anyone could show up in your DC class. Yes, people can take a view on pastoral care etc at individual schools, but so much depends on your individual child and who they happen to get plonked with. It’s very hard to gauge overall because everyone’s experiences will vary. For instance, I had a few not so great experiences with pastoral care at LU in the Lower School, but that wouldn’t lead me to conclude that ‘pastoral care is not good at LU’ because I know other people have had very positive experiences and also we found it improved as they moved up the school.

I would say, that of the very few children I’ve heard of who have dropped out the schools, its usually because problems caused by their home life or some other wider issues. I can’t think of a single one in all these years who had to leave because they couldn’t cope academically. Even the ones who perceive themselves academically struggling, still come out with at least 7s and As at A-level. Which is hardly a disaster! Anything lower than a 7 at GCSE is very rare and there not many Bs at A-level either.

So what I’m trying to say in a roundabout way is - if your DC has been offered a place at any of these schools, please don’t worry about them coping academically because, almost certainly, they will be fine on that score. The schools are not academically pressured for the type of children who go there. It’s just normal to them. Socially, well... teens are teens and they will all have their fall outs and ups and downs. But this will be the case in any school. Nowhere is perfect and this is life. Just hi where you think has the best atmosphere for your child (eg. co-ed or single sex). Mental health problems can strike anyone, in any walk if life, anywhere at any time. But notwithstanding this, once in any of these schools, they don’t need to compete. The academics will take care of themselves and average is good enough. Any of these schools will get them where they want to go and they just need to know this and make the most of the opportunities available to them.

Can someone please point out to me areas in the UK where the local state secondary school(minus grammars) does better or should I say gets better results(GCSE&A levels) than the local independent secondary school? I have this written plenty of times on Mumsnet.

renamer What an odd post. You write as if these schools are homogenous (I assume you can only mean you have experience of SPGS and G&L and haven’t produced a tribe who have also road tested LEH, LU and all the other schools mentioned here. The reality is that a pupils experience can be different between different cohorts at different schools never mind between the different cultures Heads try to cultivate. Though some Heads are better than others none can get their tentacles down to every teaching moment, need for pastoral care /discipline, and every selection process. It really is true that what works as a motivating environment for one pupil in one year can feel like the pressured hothousing that makes another pupils experience stressful and draining of self esteem, and that can be down to their peers as well as the school. It is why the decision on what is best for your child is so difficult and not just a case of this is the school other parents think best so it must be.

As to emerging into the real world of elite universities some embrace the chance to meet and value students from all sorts of backgrounds, and come to appreciate they have been in a weird narrow bubble. It gives them the skills to survive in workplaces that have the same diversity ( and those skills are particularly looked for by many organisations eg the big four, medicine, now). Others cling to the bubble and form exclusive private school cliques in the belief that the world of work will embrace that social skill set. In some cases it will but it closes down their options…..

I have had children at all these schools and (with the exception of a very small minority), there is no such thing as being “not in the top 50%” fgs! It’s hardly as clear cut as that. They’re being taught multiple subjects and all students will have their strengths and weaknesses. A student in the top maths set might struggle with languages, for instance - or whatever. Even students who don’t appear relatively “strong” anywhere across the academic curriculum, might be fantastic at sport or drama or something else. They all find their “thing” is what I’m saying.

I made it very clear to my kids from day one, that they do not need to be top across the board (or even in any subject) to be doing well. The schools reinforce this and they know they are ‘a bubble’ in terms of performance standards across the U.K. They don’t give grades in reports anymore because they don’t need to. They let students know that the vast majority of them will be roughly in the mid 80% of the cohort, give or take (with few very exceptional outliers at the top and some who may need some support at the other end). As long as you’re roughly in this 80% bulk cohort, you are in track for a 9 or 8. The rest is just splitting hairs which leads to unnecessary stress and hot air.

My DC was in one of the lower Maths sets of ten sets. Still got a 9. Very middling all the way through, really. Never got a subject prize or felt particularly ‘stand out’ in anything. Got all 9s at GCSE and was amazed - and at this point realised they were actually doing a lot better than they had previously perceived. All the friends got all 9s too (possibly the odd 8). All were amazed. DC then felt super-motivated and picked up the focus in sixth form. Got into Oxbridge with 4 A*. I’m not saying this to brag but to make the point that this was a very average student, relative to the cohort. The good thing (in retrospect), is that nobody told them all through school, “oh you are top in this subject - have a prize - you are the outstanding one.” So when they got to uni, they weren’t phased by intense competition and were less anxious than a lot of peers from schools where they had been told by teachers and parents that they were brilliant and exceptional since the age of ten or whatever! This is the best life lesson of these selective schools I think - they are used to being around other high-performing students as default, rather than having schools tell them they are amazing all the time. That may sound harsh, but it can be a big shock for some going from being a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a big pond when they get into competitive unis. If nothing else, these schools prepare you for this reality.

It’s easy to knock selective schools and obviously they are not an option for the majority. But, in my view, too many schools in the U.K. today seem to celebrate mediocrity and treat any students who are performing above this as if they are see semi- geniuses. A local, highly-regarded, state school near us, puts anyone who looks like they might possibly get a top grade into the “Gifted and Talented” class! Many of these students, whose parents actually refer to them as “gifted,” (well, they must be, the school told us), come out with 6s or perhaps a 7 at a push at GCSE. How helpful is that? But because they perceive themselves as gifted, they still apply for Oxbridge and other top unis anyway because they have been sold a skewed reality. I have seen this a lot, I’m afraid and it’s a real problem in U.K. comprehensives. Particularly, when, at uni application stage, they are up against students from other countries such as China.

I agree with @morecookies that "There's a lot of space between working hard and having mental health issues". If a person wants to achieve something great in life, then it very often means that they have to work extremely hard at it. That level of dedication and perseverance is not for everyone. The best doctors, athletes, executives and academics (& many others) work extremely hard. Not everyone is suited to that, and that's okay.

I think OP is very naive and too focused on school’s reputations rather than the child. I speak from experience.

Firstly the selection process itself is part of the decision making process. If the school feels right for you and your child (or conversely wrong ) then it is wise to follow your instincts. I had a DD who wouldn’t go anywhere near SPGS after the interview, she felt that she had been patronised (this was before Sarah’s Fletcher’s time and I would expect her to have changed that culture for the better). She had an even worse experience at G&L where the admissions Officer was unbelievably rude and racist (about another culture assuming we would share her ignorance / prejudice). The Headmistress at a school the parental mafia would put on a level with G&L really engaged her in argument and made her feel like her opinions were valued so that was it.

Secondly and most importantly these schools have such good results because they select the girls who will get the best results. That does not mean that your child will get the best results they are capable of at that school. It may be that in some subjects at least the teaching can get complacent. Another DD moved to a less selective co ed school for sixth form, partly because of a dysfunctional alpha girl culture in her year (one of those years that all these girls’ schools get where the sixth felt empties out for whatever reasons), she felt encouraged rather than expected to perform well in exams and ended up with an A* in one subject that no one in that subject group in her former school achieved (costing one of them an Oxford place). Obviously can’t say for certain that she did better than she would have done if she stayed on but she was certainly happier and gained self esteem. She said afterwards that what she had learnt at her former school was how to recognise exclusive behaviour and developed the strength never to put up with it if she encounters it again. Though she did add “but it would probably only happen in a woman’s prison”.

I certainly now think the choice should not be the “best school” as determined by the reputation with parents but the best school that you feel (and it is an instinct) would enable your child to best achieve their potential. All things are never equal.

The 50% comment was from someone else, as confirmed (see above for details).

And reality for us was our state school being excellent without ridiculous levels of hothousing, and if you lived in the catchment area or went to a feeder primary you had a place, regardless. The school sent as many children to med / vet / dental school / Oxbridge / RG / Ancients as the local independents.

DC’s contemporaries are everything from doctors to electricians (you’d be surprised how much the electricians are earning).

And like I say, £200k for us was much better spent elsewhere, given that it would not have improved academic outcomes.

At university its the same, you'll have students who are flying through and others have to work harder , should they just drop out and go somewhere else because its hard?

If the DD goes into medicine, law, the CIty, media, IT, it's the same thing again, pressure, colleagues that are smarter, more ambitious than you are. And some thrive in that environment, some buckle.

There's a lot of space between working hard and having mental health issues.

I recognise very academic schools are tough, they are competitive, but these schools by their nature are for those that thrive under pressure ? The girls at the school I know well, many would be bored at a lot of other schools, they'd coast even.

And yes, I recognise some girls are better off somewhere else less pressured, but not 50% of the school for goodness sake!

Yeah, me too.

It’s almost like commenting on someone else saying that if girls are in the bottom half of the class of a super selective then they might be better off somewhere else less pressured is a bad thing?

Thank Christ my DC’s state school was better performing than the local independents and we didn’t have to go anywhere near this nonsense (plus I can look at that £200k per child after tax dollars saved).

I am honestly so lost at this point. 50% of something, I'm clueless. LOL