Why on earth would anyone reject SPGS??

I think what's odd about the post is the assumption 'all things being equal' SPGS is the best because of its league table results. All the other very important considerations (pastoral care, ethos, diversity, etc) are never equal which is why there is no one best school.

A child who gets into SPGS would likely end up with identical academic results in any of the to 20 girls schools in the UK which is why if that's what you are lucky enough to be choosing between, the league table ranking becomes fairly irrelevant @newsibling123

@OP Really? "I think it's a little sad this girl needs to prove something to herself, it reeks of insecurity, that she feels she needs confirmation from this institution that she is clever". I read it as the girl knows she is very clever and has the confidence to take the initiative to win a place and turn it down. She also most likely knows that she will do at least as well as others who are clambering over places there. I would say an independent girl like her who has the confidence to steer this at that age is most likely a true outlier who will stand out when over many who are shunted through the process by over-invested parents.

Glad you don't see any of these things, OP, others clearly feel them - I didn't actually write the smacks of uneasiness bit but others agree with me.

I'll say again, though, I don't think it's remotely sad the girl set herself an intellectual challenge and succeeded.

@findingthewords

You are obviously extremely riled about this so I think we'll just have to agree to differ (though I could also randomly drag my teen DD's view into the mix in order to settle the argument ). I've explained very clearly why I imagine this particular person applied, it really does not seem at all odd to me for all the reasons I've set out.

All this shock and awe at someone daring to try to get into a difficult school and then choosing not to take up a place, smacks of an uneasiness about the fact some of the kids at the local state schools are every bit as academic as the kids getting into the ‘top schools’. Having had experience of good state schools and good private schools, I’d say the attainment of the students at the top is really not very different, which might make for uncomfortable reading for those shelling out vast amounts of money for private schools (and, as I say, I’m in that category too so this is not about me feeling self-satisfied). I think one of the reasons (NB one of the reasons, not the only reason) behind investing in private schooling can be the belief that the bright young minds of our offspring couldn’t possibly be nourished by a regular school because they are just on a different plane intellectually. Stories like the one we’ve been discussing burst that bubble, which I suspect is why the person who posted it was met with such ‘astonishment’. I'm sure it's much more comfortable to claim that the family in question is REALLY WEIRD or 'completely nuts' or that the story just isn't true

I have no reason to ask the SPGS for the stats for how many children do not take up places offered but I do know of three girls who turned down places last year - it seems very odd that I'd know almost half or more girls who didn't take up places. And the emails they sent after offers day chasing for responses would indicate that not everyone snapped up the spots immediately.

And as for my comment about the mother's refugee's status, of course refugees can come from wealthy families but you will be aware there are many different kinds of privilege and I don't see how it is in any way patronising to suggest that refugees generally have had to overcome obstacles that others haven't. I think you are just trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I'm saying something outrageous. Anyway, i'm going to step away from the hysteria.

www.londonpreprep.com/2021/04/st-pauls-girls-school-feeders/

I went to Oxbridge from a bog standard comp. No rolling out of bed for me - had to work hard to get there and while there. But it’s given me the confidence to pick more chilled schools for my dds and I also don’t think oxbridge is the be all and end all.

By the way I do know a couple of people who rolled out of bed and into Oxford though it was years ago. They were both from working class backgrounds, and underperforming schools, fiercely bright if not widely read, and were given 2 EE offers, and allowed to shortcut the old fourth term exam system ( how many bright people did that put off?) . They have more than demonstrated the process was valid by not only doing well but rising to the top of their (they are both women) professions / careers. It is a shame that practise was discontinued really.

Jesus Christ, I didn't realise my anecdote (which is true, despite the sneering "yeah rights") would cause such a storm. Some of you may find it weird that a clever child wanted to apply to an elite school for the challenge of it. Others get it.

The girl would have prob heard of SPGS and Tiffin because she lives in an area of London where it is known as THE school. Possibly, if they run a G&T programme (don't know if they do or not) she'd been part of it. I know her mother wondered about SPGS for her older sister but decided against it for reasons already explained. They did see the school as "unthinkable", just thought she probably wouldn't get in and were then presented with a big dilemma when she did win a place.

The child was bored in lockdown. She googled past papers, she had a go, enjoyed the exercise and asked to apply. Her mum thought 'why not let her have a go?' But ultimately, the place was unaffordable and the family have had a great experience with the very local school where her siblings are on track to do extremely well and gain Oxbridge places, her mother also doesn't believe in private education. The mother will not have secretly been plotting behind the scenes to get her dd in, apart from anything else she was far too busy - her work is directly connected to the pandemic. I say all credit to SPGS for recognising she was self-taught and not prepped to the nth, like many prep school applicants.

The refugee background is relevant in that my friend arrived in the UK barely speaking English aged 15 (ie quite old) but, despite the linguistic and social hurdles she faced around the same time she was taking GCSEs and A-levels, still made it to Cambridge and therefore has concluded you do not need to attend a top school to attend a top university and that the latter is far more important in the scheme of things. Which I agree with. My friend with a dd at SPGS agrees too and advised her since she was lukewarm not to take up the place. Many of you don't. I'm sorry it upsets you that clever children can get into schools that are perceived as unobtainable and still turn the opportunity down. I am pretty sure I would have sent my dd, but I respect other people's choices.

The only time I’ve seen children applying without a parent is at LU when my DC’s friend (who herself had won a full bursary for a place in the sixth form) got the forms and applied for her younger sister as their mother didn’t speak English. She also brought her younger sister to the open day, exams, etc, but the child didn’t get in unfortunately.

No it wasn’t aimed at you, Emily.

The poster giving the anecdote of the friend’s daughter who applied herself to Tiffin and SPGS just reminded me of when my DD was in the waiting room for the SPGS interview, that’s all. There was a mother there regaling everyone - “Oh, my DD dragged me here you know. Yes she’s sooo driven - I don’t know where she gets it from.”

Meanwhile in real life we all know what happens is - Parents research feasible schools. Parents tell child about x,y,z schools. Child agrees to have a go. Child does sample papers on website. Parent applies and pays fees and considers logistics if child was given an offer. Parent takes child to exams / interviews. Why pretend anything else?

You are obviously extremely riled about this so I think we'll just have to agree to differ (though I could also randomly drag my teen DD's view into the mix in order to settle the argument ). I've explained very clearly why I imagine this particular person applied, it really does not seem at all odd to me for all the reasons I've set out.

All this shock and awe at someone daring to try to get into a difficult school and then choosing not to take up a place, smacks of an uneasiness about the fact some of the kids at the local state schools are every bit as academic as the kids getting into the ‘top schools’. Having had experience of good state schools and good private schools, I’d say the attainment of the students at the top is really not very different, which might make for uncomfortable reading for those shelling out vast amounts of money for private schools (and, as I say, I’m in that category too so this is not about me feeling self-satisfied). I think one of the reasons (NB one of the reasons, not the only reason) behind investing in private schooling can be the belief that the bright young minds of our offspring couldn’t possibly be nourished by a regular school because they are just on a different plane intellectually. Stories like the one we’ve been discussing burst that bubble, which I suspect is why the person who posted it was met with such ‘astonishment’. I'm sure it's much more comfortable to claim that the family in question is REALLY WEIRD or 'completely nuts' or that the story just isn't true

I have no reason to ask the SPGS for the stats for how many children do not take up places offered but I do know of three girls who turned down places last year - it seems very odd that I'd know almost half or more girls who didn't take up places. And the emails they sent after offers day chasing for responses would indicate that not everyone snapped up the spots immediately.

And as for my comment about the mother's refugee's status, of course refugees can come from wealthy families but you will be aware there are many different kinds of privilege and I don't see how it is in any way patronising to suggest that refugees generally have had to overcome obstacles that others haven't. I think you are just trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I'm saying something outrageous. Anyway, i'm going to step away from the hysteria.

renamer Was that aimed at me? Are you implying I must be lying when I say that my daughter applied from a school that was in no way geared up for it but still managed to get offered places because the schools recognised her ability, even though she had not been tutored to the extent other applicants would have been. Actually these schools do appreciate when pupils have a diversity of experience and raw ability as opposed to being crammed, as the Head of one school put it “It is great to have these children who have lived abroad they bring so many different perspectives”.

As to Oxbridge you clearly do not understand the selection process there either. Of course nobody rolls out of bed and gets a place but if they have read widely and have the ability they demonstrably do not have to have been force fed Oxbridge prep at a private school. Indeed tutors constantly complain about applicants who cannot step out of the box and express ideas and thinking that comes from wider reading they have not already been force fed. The teachers at these schools will tell you how regularly they get that feedback.

Er, not from me. I really don't care parents do, I didn't start this thread @findingthewords I just think its weird a DC applying just to 'prove to herself', off her own bat, with her mum in cahoots, both seeing as unthinkable of attending, but to prove themselves. That screams of insecurity to me, and a whole lot of inferiority issues. I keep asking you, but you ignore the question, why do they care so much???

I just don't get it. You see it as an achievement to prove you can get into SPGS, I just see that as very sad. I feel for this girl, that she has to prove to herself she's 'good enough'.

95% of SPGS offers are accepted, 5 or 6 girls don't take up a place. It's hardly common is it?

I just asked DD, she thinks its really really weird, I won't tell you her exact words, but words to that effect She also said exactly what I asked you, why does she care so much? Especially if these schools are overrated, blah blah blah...

The fact that her mother was herself a refugee is only relevant, I suppose, in that she will have had to work very hard to get to Cambridge, probably didn’t benefit from all the kinds of privilege that often help to get in there and therefore perhaps values doing things without what she perceives to be an additional leg-up

That's very patronising, you can be a refugee and come from a wealthy, educated background you know. Christ.

Believe it or not, even folk outside the prep school system have heard of schools like SPGS. I can't imagine why you think it's so weird that a bright, driven kid from a family that is clearly invested in education wouldn't have thought "well, I wonder if I could do that... and asked her parents'.

The intellectual snobbery that lies behind the idea that it is unthinkable to turn down a place at a particular school is of course going to motivate some people - not masses obvs but some - to want to apply and see what all the fuss is about. Also bear in mind, as I said up-thread, that in the lockdown period the application process was the only way to get a look at any of these schools.

I don’t know this kid, and I’m in no way invested in her story beyond the fact that I think it’s odd that people on this thread seem to feel slighted by her the idea of her wanting to have a go at getting into these schools and then turning down the places. It’s as if her achievement somehow belittles the school or their child’s achievements in getting in or whatever else. I don’t understand why anyone else would care. She wanted to try, her parents were able to facilitate her doing so, and she now knows that she’s every bit as smart at the girls who go there but it’s not really practical financially for her to take up a place – why would anyone resent or question that. The fact that her mother was herself a refugee is only relevant, I suppose, in that she will have had to work very hard to get to Cambridge, probably didn’t benefit from all the kinds of privilege that often help to get in there and therefore perhaps values doing things without what she perceives to be an additional leg-up.

Incidentally, I personally have nothing against private education, I have one DC at a selective private and another at a comprehensive – both excellent schools. But I do question the motives of people who are so ‘incredulous’ at this child’s achievement and her family’s decision.

[quote findingthewords]@Oldpalace123 you really can't imagine why a girl who knew that there was a high likelihood she'd go to the same local school as her siblings might want to prove to herself (and perhaps others) that she could get into the likes of SPGS and/or Tiffin, even if she and her parents probably already knew it wouldn't be affordable/practical for her to take up the place?[/quote]
Er no? Unless the schools had some huge Nirvana like status within the household, which sort of contradicts your whole point.

Why do they care so much about a place they don't want to go??

My DD is in a 3-18 school, she's very bright (so teachers tell me), but she nor I have interest in 'proving' ourselves capable for SPGS or any other school, for 11+ entry. Can't believe you don't see how weird this is, proving ourselves to whom? The evil class system?

It sounds just plain weird.

If mum thinks that constitutes a 'game' to play with her DD, then she's completely nuts and I feel sorry for her.

How would a ten year-old living Kingston eat even know SPGS existed unless an adult ;parent) told them about it?

I suppose my daughter must have also ‘applied by herself’ then because she found and had a go at the couple if sample papers off the website?

Er no. As if I’d let a ten year-old apply to a school with fees. I would not have let her go through a process for a school we were not ultimately prepared to pay the fees for. It’s the parents decision ultimately. And I’m not sure what being a refugee has to do with anything. My husband was a refugee. I had a very poor education in another country, but I guess I did ok. So what? Doesn’t mean I would send my kids to school where I come from.

I think Forever above has explained that quite clearly. In fact I'd say the kind of girls who get into SPGS are just the type to take the initiative themselves though of course some parental involvement is required.

Of course the girl can choose whatever school she wants and one of mine didn’t choose SPGS. That’s a non-issue. I’m just trying to imagine how a 10 / 11 year old can ‘apply by herself’ to any school.

actually this would have been lockdown year so the second round exam and interviews were all online. The students only went in once for the first round test (which was also the only opportunity to see inside the school). Our state primary didn't give specific references - there wasn't even the option to pay for them - they just sent the same report to all secondary schools. It really wasn't a huge palaver (unless parents chose to make it so)

There’s always the type of people who claim, “Oh you know I just rolled out of bed and hey presto... what do you know.... I got into Oxford. Only applied at the last minute for a laugh...”

Yeah right.

When you apply to SPGS, it really isn’t about just “paying the fee,” There are various forms to fill in. You have to request a reference from the primary school and there is often a fee for this (per school). You have to get yourself to the pre-test exam (about 900 dit this). Then you have to wait and see if you are one of the 500 invited to sit the actual exam. The exams take a full day . Then you have to wait and see if you are one of the 200 or so invite back for interview for the 105 places.

In other words, it’s quite a drawn out process and takes investment and stamina from the child and parent at each stage. There no such thing as pay the fee and Bob’s your uncle . The mum here would have had to take the child to the school at least three times; talk to the primary for a reference, request and complete the forms as an absolute minimum. I suspect this mum was a lot more invested than she likes to make out.

OldPalace My DD basically did just what findingthewords suggests. She wasn’t in the U.K. school system, but in a lovely supportive school that had absolutely no focus on a selective system, in fact it was against their whole child focused ethos. We had no clue about the competitive culture of tutoring here. She worked her way through the parts of syllabus she hadn’t covered because she enjoyed it not because of any sort of school, peer or parental pressure. I remember she particularly enjoyed the Practise paper for the schools who including reasoning challenges rather than tests of knowledge (a couple that had I - with a business background and her teachers took a while to work out!) She sat the exams because she was interested to find out if she could get in and she enjoyed the process. It was a surprise when she did and she certainly chose not to go to SPGS because she was used to being treated as an individual valued for her wide qualities and did not enjoy what she felt was commoditised / patronised by a school that was looking at her as academic rather than a sum of her qualities and ability. She had a rollicking argument about North Korea’s position in the arms situation with the US by the Head of the school she went to which convinced her she would be valued as a person not an academic achiever. (The reality was a bit different when the Head changed). However if she had had the option of a state school that wasn’t in special measures she would have been guided by those same considerations.